life help: A Case For Agnosticism :) - Help.com

Khalivarsha²
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Minneapolis, MN, US

A Case For Agnosticism :)

I want to share with you the reason why I don’t even bother to think about god (God, gods, etc) that much, and see you guys’ opinions on it. This is the story of my experience with religion, but I don’t want people to get mentally mired in all of the tradition about God that they’ve been taught. So, I’ve changed some key names and places to protect the identities of the innocent ;)

Here’s my experience - I know how to live my life; I know what types of behaviors make me happy and what type of behaviors make me unhappy. Some crappy stuff randomly happens sometimes, but it’s the same for everyone so I just keep on working to make it better and move on. Life is pretty simple.

Then, one day, someone comes up to me and asks me if I know Bob.
“Who’s Bob?” I ask.
This person says, “Well, no wonder crappy stuff happens to you sometimes. You have to talk to Bob to get all of that fixed.”

I think this is great. It seems like everyone has crappy stuff happen to them now and then, but all we have to do is go talk to Bob and he can take care of it. Man, we should have done this years ago; we’d have a whole lot fewer problems in the world.

“Okay,” I say, “Let’s go see Bob.”
This person says, “Well, you can’t see Bob.”
“Why not?”, I ask.
I am told, “Well, you see, Bob lives in a tiny town very far away. It’s really hard to find. And even if you know where it is, its so dangerous that you can’t really survive the trip. You won’t ever see him while you’re alive.”
“Well, why’d you even bring him up?” I ask. “I already know how to make the best of my life. You got all my hopes up that I can have this magically perfect, no-problem life; but in reality, Bob is so far away that I can’t even interact with him. He can’t do anything for my life.”

I’m ready to go back to being pretty happy in a generally easy life, but I’m stopped on my way out the door. “No, you don’t get it,” I’m told. “You can’t go meet him, but he’s a pretty important guy. You think you are making the decisions that make you happy or sad, but he has pretty much total control over it.”
I say, “Well, does it matter? I mean, if I can’t talk to him then is there anything I can do about it?” By now I’m pretty upset. Everything in my experience told me that I’m in charge of what I do, but it turns out that this guy is calling all the shots.
I’m told, “Yeah. You can’t talk to him, but come into this church where we have some stationary. You can write him a letter.”
“Great! I’ll write to ask him what I should do to have a perfect life, and when he writes me back everything will be wonderful!” I exclaim.
“Woah, wait a second,” the man says. “He doesn’t actually write back.”
“What?!” By this point I’m a bit confused. “Well, I guess it doesn’t matter. As long as I write him this letter, then he’ll take care of me all the time, right?”
“Not always,” says the man. “You have to do exactly what he wants. Only when you behave as he wants you to will things work out for you all the time.”
“But if he doesn’t write back to me, how will I know what to do?”
“Well,” the man says, “Bob actually gave us this book awhile back. It says what you should do in it.”
After taking a read through it I say, “A lot of this stuff is pretty much up for interperatation. Actually, a lot of it could contradict other parts of the book depending on how you interperate it. How will I know if I’m doing it right?”
The man smiles. “That’s when you hear back from Bob. He’ll let you know.”
“Oh, that’s great. I’ll finally get to hear back from Bob and get some straight answers. Will he call me? I can send my number in the letter I write to him.”
“No, no, no. He doesn’t call you. He communicates through seemingly natural means. He’ll hear you, and then he’ll respond by means of the things happening in your life.”
I’m again confused. “You mean, you think he’s talking to me because the same type of stuff is happening that happened before I wrote him this letter? That’s strange. When he came to give you this book, did you ask him why he communicates that way?”
“Well, I actually haven’t ever seen him either. This book was around a really long time before I was even born,” admits the man.
Finally, I’m no longer confused. I say, “I get it. You’re crazy, right? Are you on meds?”
“No, no, no,” says the man, “Bob really exists. I write him letters all of the time, just like the book says to do. And then, stuff happens in my life that makes me pretty happy.”
I’ve given up at this point. “That kind of stuff happened to me before I’d even heard of Bob.
I don’t think Bob even exists. I think you’re crazy.”
The man already has his retort prepared. “If I’m crazy, then where did the book come from? I didn’t make Bob up; everybody but you knew about him before I was even around. If Bob isn’t in his little shack making stuff happen, then how come so much stuff happens, huh? You have no proof that Bob doesn’t exist.”
I agree with the man that I can’t prove Bob doesn’t exist. At this point I just don’t think it matters. My life functions the way it functions. This is true whether or not Bob is living in his little shack in the backwoods of wherever. But I do think this man made up all of the stuff about how to communicate with Bob to make your life better. It just doesn’t seem to make sense. So I leave my letter unwritten and walk out of the church. As I’m leaving, however, I hear tons of people having conversations about Bob out on the street. I suddenly realize I’ve made a grave mistake. I start running around asking, and it turns out that everyone knows about Bob. Of course he exists, or else how could everybody know about him? I have to write Bob a letter and find out how I need to act for him, or else my life is screwed.
I run up to the first group of people I see and ask for Bob’s address. I’m ready to write my letter, but they all hand me different addresses.
“How do I know which one to write to?”
Nobody seems to agree, but I have an easy way to solve this problem.
“His address is in the book, right? Let me see your book and then I’ll just look it up.” Then they each hand me a different book. Each book has a different address in it. I think, “Okay, it doesn’t really matter what address he’s at. If I just do what he tells me, then my life will be fine, right?”
So I crack open these books… and they all have different instructions, all from Bob. “Which one of these is right?” I ask.
Every person says their own book is correct. I have to get to the bottom of this. “How do you know your book is correct?” I start asking people.
The answer is always, “Well, it says it is correct right there in the book.”
“But how do you know the book isn’t lying to you?” I ask.
“Well, the book says not to question it. Bob likes faith. It says so, right there in the book. I don’t want Bob to stop making good stuff happen in my life sometimes, so I really have to follow it.”
Then another man runs up. He says, “Wait, it’s okay! You don’t have to write to Bob. I have the addresses of all his siblings, and they have the same powers as he does!”
I’m pretty happy about this until a huge argument insues. The first group thinks that Bob is an only child. In fact, it says so in most of their books.

There really wasn’t anything to do. I couldn’t be sure that I could do Bob’s will and have a happy life. So, instead, I stop thinking about Bob and pay attention to what I can do to make my life good. And then, life was pretty simple. Life was pretty happy. I looked at all of the people arguing about Bob, waiting for Bob to go fix their problems while I was out fixing my own. It seemed like I was quite a bit happier than most of the people who followed Bob.

Oh Bob, you minx.

And that is my case for Agnosticism. No minx, books, or men named Bob were hurt in the making of this story.
Thoughts?

This open post was written 9 months, 1 week ago | V/U/S: 573, 51, 15 | Edit Post | Leave a reply | Report Post


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Michael Leibman offline Verified User (10 months, 3 weeks) Long Term User Shouts: 45 #
Littleton, CO, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (5 minutes after post)

Looks like a new sermon from the church of the subgenius.

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Help me with: “mahalo”
lairmct offline Unverified User #
Sheridan, OR, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (6 minutes after post)

Hey,

I experienced your confusion in your post. I also have had the same questions as you have. I’ve recently left organized relgion. I don’t know if i want to stay that way, but for now I sure am. It sounds like some screwed up guy was telling you about Bob so it made Bob seem kind of as crazy as the guy. Find someone who is healthy. Look here is the deal. Lots of people say Bob is around. That’s great. I’ve decided that if Bob is really around than he will help me know him. If not than it doesn’t matter to me. Ask ‘Bob’ to reveal himself to you in a way you understand. If he doesn’t forget about it.

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JesusMurphy offline Verified User (1 year, 7 months) Long Term User Shouts: 8 #
An Undisclosed Location | 9 months, 1 week ago (7 minutes after post)

Wow.

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Help me with: Please, Obama…
daretodream offline Verified User (11 months, 1 week) Long Term User Shouts: 0 #
Chicago, IL, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (7 minutes after post)

I’m not religious, but belief doesn’t come from reason. By it’s very nature belief must transcend all logic. Theism is something you must believe in, is it stupid to believe that there is a big man(?) in the sky that created everything without being born? Of course, which is why Theists must believe it. You can’t compare belief and reason, they are two different things. It’s like saying “Which is better, 7 o clock or boat?”

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JesusMurphy offline Verified User (1 year, 7 months) Long Term User Shouts: 8 #
An Undisclosed Location | 9 months, 1 week ago (11 minutes after post)

Some questions are so staggering and complex that you need to be a genius just to be undecided about them.

Help me with: Please, Obama…
lairmct offline Unverified User #
Sheridan, OR, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (13 minutes after post)

Dude,
any all knowing, all powerful being will know how to get ahold of you and give you what you need to reach him. Just say it to the air. Anything all knowing will know you did. I like things simple.

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Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (13 minutes after post)

Well, lairmct, I don’t really have any questions or confusion. There were only unanswered questions and confusino when I made myself deal with relgion in order to get a good life.
Now I just skip the middleman - I work on my own problems, I go out and enjoy what I enjoy without worrying about a Santa Claus up in the sky tallying up my actions.
And my life is better than its ever been.

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Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (14 minutes after post)

JesusMurphy! wrote:
Some questions are so staggering and complex that you need to be a genius just to be undecided about them.

I really like that. I hope you don’t mind if I quote you from time to time :)

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Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (16 minutes after post)

lairmct wrote:
Dude,
any all knowing, all powerful being will know how to get ahold of you and give you what you need to reach him. Just say it to the air. Anything all knowing will know you did. I like things simple.

I’ve done that my fair share of times during my younger years. Maybe I did it wrong? Has it worked for you yet, lairmct?

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lairmct offline Unverified User #
Sheridan, OR, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (19 minutes after post)

yup. For the first time I have answers. I’m not in organized relgion, but i’m not going for organized religion. I’m going for if there is something there, I want to know it.

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Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (21 minutes after post)

That’s great lair. I think that any set of beliefs that enrich your life the most are the best ones for you. I’m glad you have your answers.

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lairmct offline Unverified User #
Sheridan, OR, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (27 minutes after post)

I’m glad I have my answers. It doesn’t sound like you got your answers. It sounds like you got frustrated, or whatever and walked away. I can sense your wall against there even being a reasonable understanding to what you wrote. You can’t get healthy answers from unhealthy people. Why would you make final decisions about something that someone messed up was telling you. Of course you might decide I am messed up and you can do that. Its your life. Enrich it however you want. Just make sure you are enriching it. IF you are than Way to Go!!! I’m glad you have your answers too. :)

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lairmct offline Unverified User #
Sheridan, OR, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (34 minutes after post)

Bye. I’m off the computer for now. Lots of love to ya

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Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (37 minutes after post)

lairmct wrote:
I’m glad I have my answers. It doesn’t sound like you got your answers. It sounds like you got frustrated, or whatever and walked away. I can sense your wall against there even being a reasonable understanding to what you wrote. You can’t get healthy answers from unhealthy people. Why would you make final decisions about something that someone messed up was telling you.

Well, if you read my story, you’ll see that I didn’t make any decisions, final or otherwise. I just realized that I didn’t need any of the ones being offered. God might be out there; that’s a pretty common theory. I don’t need that theory to function in a happy, healthy life.

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Poetictruth2 offline Verified User (9 months, 1 week) Long Term User Shouts: 1 #
Rochester, NY, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (44 minutes after post)

Listen, some people need a Bob, and they need Bob’s book. Just because a lot of other people do does not mean that you do. If you are happy without a Bob, then why fix it if it ain’t broke.

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Michael Leibman offline Verified User (10 months, 3 weeks) Long Term User Shouts: 45 #
Littleton, CO, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (52 minutes after post)

As long as he doesn’t eat all the pizza and blame it on others I think we can all get along.

http://help.com/post/45080-who-ate-th…

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Help me with: “mahalo”
PomPom offline Verified User (10 months, 2 weeks) Long Term User Shouts: 3 #
GB | 9 months, 1 week ago (55 minutes after post)

my head hurts after reading that LOL

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Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (56 minutes after post)

Michael Leibman wrote:
As long as he doesn’t eat all the pizza and blame it on others I think we can all get along.

http://help.com/post/45080-who-ate-th…

lol. Oh Bob, that sexy minx. Also, I’m glad you brought up church of the subgenius. I actually had never heard of it before, but after doing a bit of Googling I think I may have reached the religion that will bring me back into the faith fold :)

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InfoPRO offline Verified User (12 months) Long Term User Shouts: 29 #
An Undisclosed Location | 9 months, 1 week ago (2 hours, 47 minutes after post)

It’s not about your life getting better here on earth. It’s about the war ragging in the Spiritual Realm over a human beings soul. Because of Adam and Eve sin, our Physical Domain was turned over to satan. Anyone born into this domain became the property of satan by default.

In order to defect from satan’s ownership, one had to confess, with one’s mouth, Bob’s LORD whose name is YAHSHUA (or JESUS) as his/her Savior. By doing this, transfer of ownership is initiated but not complete in the Spiritual Realm which is the Invisible Realm for us.

This act begins the relationship that will lead you to actually experiencing a meeting of Bob’s LORD or HEAVENLY HOST in your life. Just like your desire to drive your car. You had to study a manual on the driving Laws of your State and eventually read the Owners Manual of your car before navigating the highways of this life…

Same for the HOLY BIBLE…it does the exact same thing. It takes time to learn, adjust, correct and perfect. It is a new lifestyle in this “End of Ages” dispensation prior to the “TEST”. A new, if you will, Citizenship.

If he “Called” you Khalivarsha², come, share and allow me to re-introduce you to Bob’s LORD.

Most Humbly,

InfoPRO

“Love is an act of endless forgiveness, a tender look which becomes a habit.”
- Peter Ustinov


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Michael Leibman offline Verified User (10 months, 3 weeks) Long Term User Shouts: 45 #
Littleton, CO, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (2 hours, 59 minutes after post)

Khalivarsha² wrote:
I’m glad you brought up church of the subgenius.

Glad to have brought you gladness.

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Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (3 hours, 26 minutes after post)

InfoPRO wrote:
If he “Called” you Khalivarsha², come, share and allow me to re-introduce you to Bob’s LORD.

Well, I appreciate your offer InfoPRO. I grew up in a very religious environment and spent many a year studying all kinds of religious and philosophical views. Please trust that I’ve heard things like this more times than I can remember.
Once I got enough experience in the world, this is all it begins to sound like - “Hey Khalivarsha, it’s not about this world. It’s about Bob’s house. No, I’ve never seen it, but I know it’s important. How do I know? Well, my version of the book, the Correct version, says so.” Maybe it’s all true. I’ve never needed to believe so to get what I want out of life.

If believing all the things you’ve said make your life a better place, then more power to you =)

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Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (3 hours, 44 minutes after post)

lol, true enough. I’d love to see Richard’s view on this.

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Tictactomm offline Verified User (10 months, 2 weeks) Long Term User Shouts: 1 #
Edmonton, AB, CA | 9 months, 1 week ago (4 hours, 52 minutes after post)

There is an exterior means of knowing and relating to the universe (science and the measureable/provable: a quantifiable external world ground in and verified by emperical theory)and an interior means of knowing and relating to the universe (unique to the individual, non quantifiable). Do not doubt the existence of this interior means of knowing. It forms the basic foundation of relating to and interacting with the external world.

Imagine a pink elephant floating off the ground with a “Bush/Cheney 05″ bumper sticker stuck to its butt. This pink elephant may exist in your mind’s eye, and it may be a little (or a lot) different from one person to the next, but it obviously doesn’t exist in the external world. Certainly it doesn’t exist among the electric currents that charge your brain matter does it? Does that mean that it doesn’t exist at all? No, after all you exist (Descartes “I think therefore I am”) therefore that pink elephant that you imagined must exist, in that “unprovable” internal reality. And a number of people share enough of that same image of the pink elephant that they can build a common understanding and interpretation of it, particularly if the first who “saw” that elephant gave some direction about what it should look like and what it should mean to you when you see it for yourself. Now, substitute “Pink Elephant” for “God”.

On a personal level I would also argue that, upon having an internal awareness of “God” firmly in my own mind’s eye, and respecting that this internal understanding of “God” is an evolving awareness over my lifetime, then my interpretation of the external world is affected by that and I can therefore “see” abundant evidence of God’s presence in the external world. Unprovable? Subjective? Unreplicable in a laboratory? Absolutely. As valid an interpretation of reality as something viewed under a microscope? Absolutely.

All that being said, I like your comments Khali about living in the now. Too many people are overly preoccupied with the meaning of their life and why they are here, rather than focusing on the more important question of how they should live. I also believe one can be moral and fulfilled without religion or faith. No one has a right to condemn someone’s choice in this matter, beit agnostic, atheist, Voodoo or Vishnu. Does that mean that we can’t argue and explore our beliefs and question others? Of course not. Just don’t automatically assume someone has a low IQ (or is “crazy” or on “meds”) because they profess a faith.

Khalivarsha² offline Verified User (11 months) Long Term User Shouts: 14 #
Minneapolis, MN, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (6 hours, 9 minutes after post)

tictactomm - good points, all. Life is such a subjective experience that it would be hard for anyone to claim that they know all the criteria by which reality is defined, and any other view or faith is wrong (or crazy, or of low intelligence). True enough.

There is one thing I disagree with, however. I don’t believe that there is an internal world and external world. This is how I see it - what we define as the “external” world is just something we experience through our highly distortable senses, then give “inherent” meaning based on our memories of what that experience is like, and then judge based on our personal values. It seems to me that even the most external of things must be an internal experience, at its core.

That being said, it seems even less logical for me to call someone else’s experiences crazy or suggest they need meds, yes? Let me explain. I don’t know who’s version of reality is “correct”, or even if there is a correct version. Who can say what the absolute parameters of crazy are? But regardless of its correctness, there are times when it is useful to dismiss a person’s view out of hand as crazy. When someone is a danger to others unless they are medicated, I feel it is useful to hold this view.

As far as religion goes, I agree with what you’re saying. Even if a person seems crazy to us, we cannot realistically hold others to the logic of our perception of reality. Once upon a time I did not understand that, and that is why this story (a story truly based on the process by which I reached agnosticism) includes a period where I thought people were crazy for putting so much faith into ideas which seemed to defy reality.

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Tictactomm offline Verified User (10 months, 2 weeks) Long Term User Shouts: 1 #
Edmonton, AB, CA | 9 months, 1 week ago (8 hours, 4 minutes after post)

Well said Kahli. Thanks for the clarification.

One point of clarification in kind because I don’t think I was explicit enough: I didn’t say (or didn’t mean to imply) that there is an external world and an internal world, I said there is an exterior means of perceiving reality and an interior means of perceiving reality. One reality, two ways to view it: objectively and subjectively. Some means of awareness, such as the imagination, are 100% ground in the internal perception of reality. Just because we thought up a pink elephant doesn’t mean it exists in the external world, but it does exist internally in our own mind’s eye. My point is, that internal awareness that some people SUBJECTIVELY have in common with each other is no less valid than the external awareness that we all OBJECTIVELY share.

Let me go at it from a different angle based on one of your observations. You said that “even the most external of things must be an internal experience.” I think I see where you’re coming from: all reality is vetted through our subjective consciousness, I don’t disagree. I do believe though that regardless of one’s own perception there is a replicable, scientific, empirical means of knowing the world. In short, scientific theory. E.G: everyone on earth who drops a 1 kg rock from the same height will witness the same thing. We all agree on the theory of relativity because mass, time and energy does the same thing in every currently conceivable circumstance (or until the next paradigm shift in science expands the principle). We may not know why objects of mass attract each other, but we all see that they do, or at least 99% of us see it, not including nut-jobs and med-heads (see? Hip with the vernacular!).

This objective perception of reality, however, isn’t the ONLY means of knowing the world.

I think it is wrong to demand that same objective proof of a subjective experience (Agnostics take notice here), and it is equally wrong to use subjective experience as proof in the objective world (God-Lovers take notice here). BUT, both the shared subjective and objective perceptions of reality are equally valid, and both we can demand more from or accept less of as our own understanding of reality develops over our lifetime.

As you may have guessed Kahli, I am not nor will ever be an Agnostic, but I’d rather hang out with an Agnostic than a pushy Evangelist. Agnostics have sarcasm!

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PomPom invited 3 users to read this post 9 months, 1 week ago.

AKITHMA offline Verified User (1 year) Long Term User Shouts: 8 #
An Undisclosed Location | 9 months, 1 week ago (3 days, 7 hours after post)

the flesh need but answers though the spirit need but faith,the book of contemplation is extremely large one would guess

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Help me with: BABYLON X MASS
Thinkingofyou offline Verified User (10 months) Long Term User Shouts: 5 #
West Lebanon, NH, US | 9 months, 1 week ago (3 days, 17 hours after post)

Lol, “whoa, wait a second. he doesnt actually write back”….I wish I was Bob…He has one kick a$$ job, then maybe people could ALMOST believe in me.

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Help me with: Torn between men.
AKITHMA offline Verified User (1 year) Long Term User Shouts: 8 #
An Undisclosed Location | 9 months, 1 week ago (3 days, 22 hours after post)

his words are written on the heart pre-encoded the reply awaiting discovery from the interlect not internet or email attachment ,books are old school primative design,were talking about superior arrangement here,not some penpal in wait,we are the letter,the written reply alive and breathing,forged and implanted before the question was asked in gods holy handwriting,the holy ghost is an interpreter to read the living spirit book that is man

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Help me with: BABYLON X MASS
PomPom offline Verified User (10 months, 2 weeks) Long Term User Shouts: 3 #
GB | 9 months, 1 week ago (3 days, 22 hours after post)

akithma i am actually starting to understand a little of what you say, amazing!!

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AKITHMA offline Verified User (1 year) Long Term User Shouts: 8 #
An Undisclosed Location | 9 months, 1 week ago (3 days, 23 hours after post)

Hallelujah PomPom!

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AKITHMA offline Verified User (1 year) Long Term User Shouts: 8 #
An Undisclosed Location | 9 months, 1 week ago (4 days after post)

All things external or internal are just waves of energy,spectrums and atoms vibrating at different speeds,eg light and sound detected by an internal sensory system that is itself vibrating within an external wave length or field,converting these vibrations into concept or ideal,form,sound and colour within the minds understanding,vibrations interpreting vibrations,speed being the variable,spectrums of light speed from gamma to infared,all the colour of the bow,atomic vibration sound frequencies,catch the vibe,tune in to the heart song at radio earthling

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AKITHMA offline Verified User (1 year) Long Term User Shouts: 8 #
An Undisclosed Location | 9 months, 1 week ago (4 days after post)

Musik is a universal constant,the heartbeat is tuned to its frequency

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