Okay, I don’t know all the answers but maybe I can help you. Your arguments are very common with both people who have believed and with people who have never believed. First just let me say that you can’t change your perspective of God based on what others do. God is who he is no matter what we think or do.
You asked why he put us here? He wants to have a relationship with us. He could have made us mindless dolls that say “I love you” whenever he wishes, but he knows that it wouldn’t be real. He wants us to love him knowing that we can choose do to otherwise. That’s what makes a relationship special. He gives us free will.
And you also asked why God put a tree in the garden in the first place? Honestly, I don’t know. But he did. And he knew that we would sin. And that’s okay. He knew when he created man that we’d fall short plenty of times. That’s why he forgives us. He will completely forget the sin if we ask for forgiveness.
And your other question about Christians feeling like they have a right to tell people that they’re going to Hell is very common. One of the most common things a Christian is called is a hypocrite. I know that and it’s true. But the thing is that as Christians, we really do believe that non believers will not go to Heaven. As Christians we believe that the only way to eternal life is through Christ. You’re right, by the way- telling a life long Buddhist that he’s been living a lie is not the way to do it. But you somehow need to proclaim your faith by telling what you believe and letting them choose, not forcing it upon them, and you should be doing it out of love, not because you feel like you can rub something in their faces.
I disagree with the way your church was run- you should not ever shun someone from the way they look. That is the opposite of what God wanted! Jesus spent time with all kinds of people who were shunned from society- leapors, tax collectors, and poor people. We need to instead be like Him and reach out to all types of people.
I understand that you have made your decision. I’m sorry that you have had so many negative experiances with your church, but God is, and will always be, a loving creator, no matter what your church made him seem to be. I hope this helped.
Hmm… would never guess the person above me is religious.
Nonetheless, I am glad you have finally come to a very important realization. I am an atheist, however I have no qualm with the concept of God, merely the idea of organized religion.
Most of the religions teach hate for all those different, all in the idea that forcing your God and your beliefs on them will result in a better life for them. The ignorance of many religions also are a result of human interpretation on religion rather than the religion itself.
Don’t go to church… should you find yourself needing a God, then pray and practice on your own accord. IF a God exists, I very seriously doubt he cares that you pray to him in your mind or in a church.
You should read a book called messy Spirityality by michael Yaconelli it addresses all your questions. God still loves you
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I never said I don’t believe in God, I just don’t think that CHRISTIANS follow exactly what they are taught every Sunday. I’ve always liked the idea of free will, but if God knows what we are going to do anyway, then can you really call that free will? The God I believe in is a loving, kind God who accepts everyone. I don’t think the Bible, a book written by MAN, could accurately portray things exactly as they were. For instance, in the original Hebrew and Latin translation of the Bible, the creation story has some differences. It says man and woman were created at the same time, it says that people originally came from the water, and it says that eating of the tree will make them like US, hinting at more than one god perhaps? I’m just saying that that is how different our current translations are from the original, and it’s because of the Catholic Church’s “improvements,” I suppose you could call them. I put my faith in God himself, not a book that has been completely misinterpreted over the years and our entire religious culture is based on.
Also, not to start any arguments or anything, but how can you possibly be atheist? I’ve never understood that at all, regardless of how I feel about church. The concept that the universe just accidentally happened is ludicrous. I love science and I love knowing things, but regardless of how you hash it, there is always the possibility of a higher power; you can’t DISPROVE it. True enough, God has never physically came down and talked to me, but that is what the idea of Deism is all about; God made the perfect clock, and he’s letting it run it’s course. I hate when people give God credit for everything. For example, let’s say I write a book and in the book I thank God for giving me the ability to write that book. Now, God did not come down, grab a pen, and start brainstorming did he? No. But if God did have anything to do with the book being written, then I didn’t have a choice but to write it if it was his will, right? Well, what about my will? There are just so many loopholes in doctrines. But nonetheless, I can’t deny that there is a higher power.
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4 months, 1 week ago (10 hours, 18 minutes after post)
I believe in God and I always have and will. But the church I grew up in was hypocrites, they claim to be holy but they judged others, put you down for your sins and wouln’t allow certain people in church. In my belief only God has the right to judge. Don’t get me wrong I judge alot but I don’t claim to be all sin free and I never judge from the past only the future. If you claim to live completely for God then do it.
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4 months, 1 week ago (10 hours, 19 minutes after post)
Well, even if God knows how things are going to turn out, he still gives us the ability to choose. He doesn’t want you to feel like you have no choice because he knows what you’ll choose already. He still doesn’t interfere. And when you say that people give God credit for things like writing a book, it’s not so much that they are saying that he wrote the book, just that he gives us our talents and resources to be able to do so. Also, when you say that the Bible was written by man so how can it be the word of God and accurate, it says in the Bible that when the people were writing, they were filled with the Holy Spirit and that the words came from God. Anyways, I’ve got to go… I’ll sign in later.
I’m not trying to banter back and forth or anything, I’m really not into debate. All I’m saying is that everyone’s arguments I’ve heard aren’t convincing. I used to be in your shoes, rdhdjil. I used to defend God with all of my heart. But then I actually thought about it.
I didn’t mean ‘God physically wrote this book,’ I meant, like you said, he supposedly gave us the ability. I was writing long before I knew God personally, so I don’t think he can take credit for that. Even if he could, why would I need to seek answers for my life when they were already there before? As for the authors of the Bible being filled with the holy spirit, can we really prove that? What happened to Jesus’ message from the New Testament? Too many people continue to live by the prejudices of the old Testament; they base their faith on things that don’t even pertain to them. I don’t think the God of the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament. The old had to be tampered with during the Dark Ages and the Inquisition. They took out all the women’s ages, for example, when they made the King James Version. They made it into something it never was, and people still live by it. I think the Bible has created an overall ‘culture’ in the Christian community, and God’s message was marred in the process.
And if he doesn’t interfere, then why do people still pray to him and suck up to him? There are just so many gaps I don’t understand.
Please don’t think I’m trying to convince you of anything; I really do value your input, and it’s great that you have faith. :) It’s just that its stuff I’ve already heard. I just want different perspectives, thats all.
You mention original sin. Now answer me why would a good god attribute a sin we never committed to us?
Original sin pertains to humanity as a whole; we are born in sin, and therefore have to beg God to forgive us for our sinful existence. It’s all in the Bible, give it a read.
As for an answer to that question, I’d like it if someone could tell me the same thing.
jwombles wrote:
Original sin pertains to humanity as a whole; we are born in sin, and therefore have to beg God to forgive us for our sinful existence. It’s all in the Bible, give it a read.
As for an answer to that question, I’d like it if someone could tell me the same thing.
You seem to be saying that we sin but not of our own free will. How is it sin if it is not of our own free will and why do we have to beg God for forgiveness?
the questions you are posing are the exact same ones I would like answered. Indeed, why?
what i quoted before was what i was taught in church, not what i believe.
I just want to touch on one thing right now, any Christian that tells another they are going to hell is wrong, it is not up to us to be the judge of non-believers. The sad thing is that most Churches have strayed away from the teachings of Christ. That’s not to say that all of them have, there are still some that teach and follow the teachings of Christ.
I’d like to come back to some other things you’ve said and discuss them, unfortunately I can’t right now.
I am an atheist because it makes the most logical sense.
To try and ignore the pattern of evolution ( which even John Paul acknowledged as acceptable ) is a sign of an delusion. To try and ignore something with such a great amount of supporting information is like denying that you exist.
I am not attempting to convert you away from your beliefs, it is my personal opinion to whether a God exists or not. If you wish we could start that conversation another time.
What I AM trying to say is that it is perfectly acceptable to not follow the church. The church is run by people, who are inherently flawed. The bible (which is the word of God) was written by SEVERAL people all whom are susceptible to the human behavior of making mistakes.
Make the choice, and if you feel comforable with the church then go to it. If you don’t, then pray to God through your own ways. As I said before, if there is a God, I’m sure he doesn’t care whether you show your love to him in a church or within your house.
I didn’t say that I do or don’t believe in evolution. I just think that the concept of the universe just happening by accident is man’s way of dealing with the fact that ‘we just don’t know.’ A friend of mine on this site asked someone, “If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? What’s on the other side?”
At one point in time, there was no up, down, left, or right. There was nothing, no dimensions, no shape…nothing. Then it all just happened. The Big Bang. Matter came to exist. But where did said matter come from?
I’m not arguing or anything like that, just presenting a question. I think it’s very cocky of the human race to assume that they know how the universe came to be. After all, we barely make up .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent of it.
If you don’t believe in any higher power, what do you believe in regards to the creation (or happening) of the universe?
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I’ve been a Christian all my life, and I still consider myself a Christian, but I feel the same way!
1) I totally agree with this…Christians are always talking about loving others, but they are super gossipy. That is not really loving to me.
2) I can’t imagine ever telling someone that they are going to hell. It is not my place to judge them…it is my place to live in the world and to live as a Christian in this world.
I’m agnostic.
I dislike religious debates, let people believe what they want to believe. It’s their choice.
I agree. I’m not into religious debates at all. My argument isn’t directed at God, or whoever is up there. It’s directed at the Christian culture as a whole. Jesus said himself to be as the birds of the earth. Let the Lord provide for you, and worry about no one else.
The churches I’ve been exposed to seem to think they know what’s best for the rest of the world. I would think thats God’s business.
Your absolutely right by the way, humans barely grasp at the threads of what makes our universe. Just not to recently did we even discover that matter had not one but 2 opposites (dark and anti matters).
BUT, what have scientifically is the best judgement at the time. To play the construction game, we don’t know what created the matter. However, you must also ask yourself if everything has a creator, who built God?
There are many things that we have yet to discover, but to attribute the unknown to a higher authority is a discourse from progress. The greeks and romans attributed lightning to Zeus, but some people questioned and now today we know that lightning is the discharge of pent up electrical energy within clouds.
My point is, keep your God, my real qualm is with the church and their hinderance of the human progress.
Great post. This is a subject that has been discussed a lot on help, but often with arguments. The arguments are usually between those who are offended by Christianity and Christians who are trying to convert them. BTW, I didn’t read all the replies, but the TOS here specifically disallows overt conversion attempts.
Recently, we did have a very good post on the subject by Fizz.
http://help.com/post/147155-how-to-be… There were many good replies made by people of differing views. Here is one of mine:
the central conflict is between people who try to convert others and people who don’t want to be converted. this includes any belief system whose adherents try to increase their membership aggressively.
many evangelical christians take the bible literally. to non-believers this smacks of closed-mindedness. this collection of books, poems and letters, in my opinion, was written by men (only men) who may have been influenced by god, but were also subject to political and social pressures.
i became a christian almost 40 years ago and have searched for a faith community in numerous denominations. it’s apparent that there are portions of the bible that are inspired, and some not. who can fault “love your neighbor as yourself”? but when it comes down to strictures of diet and head coverings (moses); proper behavior for slaves, and women being silent in the church (paul) and warriors bashing their enemies infants’ heads against rocks (david), literalists are quick to rationalize that “that was just for their time.”
an unchanging god doesn’t change his/her ways to suit the society. by today’s standards, israel’s entrance to the promised land would be considered genocide. a loving god would never instruct one nation to annihilate another.
the bible as we now have it, states things in an all-or-nothing way. christians take evangelizing literally, but not “turn the other cheek” and the other simple commands from Jesus’ sermon on the mount.
living the way Jesus taught does make for a peaceful, enlightened life. compelling people to live as Jesus taught or face the prospect of hell, leads believers to intolerance, coercion, division and war. and it leads non-believers to resentment and.. non-belief.
the imperative to convert others is repugnant to the unconverted, and makes kamikazes of christians.
so yes, i pick what i like from the bible. i believe in god, Jesus and over-tipping (going the second mile). i don’t believe in hell. even the most brutal dictator on the planet doesn’t torture people endlessly for not believing in him.
unbelievers see the actions of believers as a whole and conclude that it doesn’t work as it is presented. i see believers and non-believers alike who show the spirit of god by their loving actions, and conclude that their is no difference based on religious beliefs.
the subject is vast and i’m not, so i really don’t want to get into a war of words. i’m no scholar. i just think that in any religion where the bottom line is “turn or burn” that the threat is antithetical to the original message of selfless love. that’s where christianity and islam have strayed farthest.
I, too, have recently experienced struggles with my faith/former faith. I, too, have recently stopped going to church. I, too, find it INCREDIBLE offensive that the church expects its followers to tell someone that the only thing they have ever known or believed is wrong and they are going to go to hell over it. I, too, am sick of the judgment, criticism, and insult of “holier than thou” Christianity. I, too, think that the church has deviated off into some kind of fundamentalist bull-crap that is nowhere near the truth of pure love that the real God, and the real “Bible” (or whatever holy book you embrace) intended.
It’s about love, and if we all just left it at that, there would be no more arguments. What a day that would be!
God gives everyone choices in life. He lets you make your own mistakes and allows you to learn from them.
And second, the Church is full of hypocrites. It always has been and it always will be. Its complete crap, but it probably will never change. =/
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