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I think relationships can fail if you expect too much, like you said we need to accept peoples flaws. However I find a common problems seems to be the guys inability to cope with the girls flaws.

In my personal experience, my boyfriend said he would never abandon me however much I hurt myself, but then he did, and started to be extremely cruel, saying I’d ruined his life and he cut off all contact. He made me feel completely worthless, he’d said so many supportive things when we were together, only to tell me he didn’t mean it later. He used me. I never lied to him, good or bad, he got the truth, 100%. I felt like everything he said was designed to manipulate me or make me feel bad. I was desperate.

Anyway…sorry that might not have been relevant Raver, but in response to your comments I do think we should be allowed to get moody and angry at times, men and women, because we can’t be smiley all the time. I think the most important things are honesty, and taking the time to listen to each other.

P.S I hope I don’t come across as sexist (even though, to be fair, I am), I am aware there are girls out there who treats their guys like s**t too. I just tend to find that males can cut themselves off and be cold and unrelenting in a way few girls emotions allow them too.

We men do not “deal with” very much. We bottle it up, distract ourselves and wait for our good ladies to take the initiative and soothe our troubled ego. Or we kick off and out comes all the back catalogue of bottled up lip-biting resentment. Men are actively encouraged to be “strong” and keep a “stiff upper lip”. We are railroaded into believing that emotions somehow make us weak, and so we tend to treat emotional outburst with scorn and derision. We disconnect ourselves from the emotional pain and turmoil we foment, dismissing it as “women’s troubles” or “female overreaction”. We pretend to feel nothing, for to admit feelings is to open the emotinal floodgate of all the bad feeling, all the guil, shame and hurt that we have been carefully hiding since we were but small boys, counselled “not to cry” when upset, told to “be a brave little soldier” when scared or injured. We protect our fragile, skewed view of reality with heartless remarks, uncaringly selfish attitude, a deliberate refusal to understand any other point of view other than our own. We lie, again and again, not to “keep the peace” as most men will pretend amongst themselves, but to protect our safe, secure, largely commitment free lives.
I would like to apologise, ladies, for myself and on behalf of my gender at large. We are little more than emotional infants, afraid to commit, afraid to share, afraid to love, afraid to open up to another human being, to lay bare our souls, to accept that we are as vulnerable, lost, confused and hurt from time to time as you ladies are.
We could all do better in trying to listen. And I don’t mean paying lip service to it here, fellows. No “yes, dear”, “uh-huh” as we focus on the footie, or get the best lap time on the xbox. I mean pay attention. Hear what is being said to you. Try to understand the frustration and the need of the other person. Isn’t that what we all want? To be heard, to know that someone understands our needs, our hurt, our frustrations and pain.
Honesty is the key. But as we frequently pretend to ourselves about our desires and motivations in our daily lives, honesty with another can prove difficult and very problematic.
We have to keep talking. We have to let someone else in. We have to care.
We are ultimately responsible for our own happiness, but we can all play a crucial part in the happiness of others. We are what we choose to do. Choose well. We cannot leave it until tomorrow. All we aver have is this moment. Now.

Please forgive the numerous spelling mistakes. My brain runs far faster than my poor wee fingers can type.

How much should we put up with in a relationship?

I think the answer is as much as you can without feeling unhappy and disrespected.

I do believe that nobody is perfect, but there is a line of respect that neither of you should cross.

“Non Violent Communication” by Marshall B. Rosenberg offers invaluable advice on understanding ourselves and truly hearing and supporting others.

Up next on Oprah….

Well done raver, an interesting and well written post I must say.
My opinion on this is that no one is perfect, we should accept people how they are and love them, but sometimes in a relationship a person will change to fit the relationship and if their “flaws” make the other person unhappy however minor then working on it is sometimes not possible.
Some people will love each other but when they are together will just bring out the bad in each other no matter how hard one or both try.
So, my conclusion is that if a relationship is bumpy then that is normal, if the bumps make you unhappy then try to respect the other person but not at th cost of your hapiness.

dazmo wrote:
its useless paranoiaman. ive noticed about women that they know all these things about guys, they just dont give a rip. they like it, it gives them an excuse to walk all over us.

Deliberate provocation is useless. I, for one, happen to like ladies. And their unfathomable depths.

It rather depends on the emotion. Unfortunately, ladies are privvy only to our anger. They shouldn’t have to put up with that cr*p from anyone.

dazmo wrote:
express myself in a meaningful way. guys are like that once theyve tought themselves that its important, and learned to do it.

That’s guy speak for “Oh sh*t! I’m caught. Better cover my *ss”, right?

everyone has good days and bad days. and everyone has some flaws. so you should never pretend to be happy all the time. when two people love each other, they’ve got to learn to work together. sometimes personalities may clash. me and my fiance are stubborn, i’m bad because i need things to be MY WAY, but he WON’T take orders from me. (which drives me crazy). also we both get a little bitchy at times. but we love each other, so sometimes you have to give in or you have to tone down certain things about yourself so that you don’t constantly clash with your partner! you should never allow yourself to be disrespected, and you should never tolerate cheating, or lies. everything else, you can work with. relationships are hard work sometimes, but you take the good and the bad in both of you, and you make the best of it!

Not at all. I’ve got the deap sea helmet and everything. Ladies are indeed fabulous, in all their wiley glory. But asides from the sheer physical attraction, I have found them to be loving, generous, selfless and intuitively wise, with incredible capacity for understanding, acceptance and forgiveness. With breasts. Win, win, really.

Oh absolutely. They’re just not so hung up on pretending to be inhuman, unfeeling robots as us fellows, in my experience.

I would say the only scenario someone should get out fast is if your partner is abusive. I don’t think anyone needs that.

Arguments and stuff is something that’s workable. I think it’s good to care enough to argue with your partner. I’ve been in situations where I’ve just said “f*** it” and have walked away, but this time I feel I want to fight to make it work. It’s great when it makes you move forward. It teaches you to compromise and better yourself. And I want to be a better person… if only in the eyes of the one. Other people can kiss my a$$ if they can’t take who I am… lol

You owe each other some “emotional slack.” By that I mean that guys should be allowed to “vent,” and women should be allowed to cry or otherwise “emote” from time-to-time. People need to relieve stress. Women often do it by crying, and men often do it by swearing. I am so sorry, but telling a man not to swear at times is like telling a woman she is not allowed to cry. The question is a matter of degrees, or limits. No verbal abuse, e.g., “You’re an ugly, rotten person!” And no physical abuse. Yes, we all say things we later regret–ALL of us. Do you drop someone for one infraction? Or two? Or three? Again, it’s a matter of degrees and limits. I’m sure a guy that was always on a “rampage” would eventually “turn off” his mate’s feelings or him, just as a guy whose wife or girlfriend was constantly on a crying jag would want to head for the hills. BIG thing: you don’t blame your partner for your mistakes. If your partner is doing that all the time, then you need to get out. You’ll never expiate all the guilt that is being laid on you. I was once with a woman who took out her past relationships out on me. No matter how much I was punished, it would not make up for the past hurts, however. Her abuse of me did not edify her in any way, and my self-esteem was under constant attack. So I left. Sometimes, that’s the only course of action open to you.

thanks for the invite — and it’s an interesting question.

I think love is not something you can add up to come up with a score. If two people love each other they will accept each other’s faults and “live with” them.

I think *abuse* has *NOTHING* to do with loving another person.

If you’re can’t “accept” the other person for the way they are, then you don’t love them.

A *really* interesting question is whether it makes sense to “spend” your life living together with someone you don’t love — and if you were even to despise the other person, then living together seems like it would be like *WORKING IN A PRISON CAMP* 24/7/365… :S

Not exactly “happily ever after” — but we’Re also not talking about fairy tales, I guess….

BD

We all make mistakes. But persistent “mistakes” that we know upset or annoy our partner are symptomatic of a lack of respect for another’s wishes. We need to practise tolerance and understanding, without allowing oursleves to be treated as a doormat. Often the problem is that the issue over which friction comes to a head is merely the tip of the iceberg, regarding unspoken and unresolved upset, distress and conflict. If someone is willing to bail out at the first sign of trouble, or over a minor issue, it usually means that they have been harbouring doubts, or keeping secret their desires, for some time. Our hectic, 21st Century lifestyles actively encourage “I want it now” unrealistic goals and a “quick fix” mentality. Partnership requires patience, tolerance, respect, understanding and love. And a whole lot of work from both parties.

*ourselves*. Though don’t be letting your sleeves get used as a doormat neither.

Ah, but we must all endeavour to understand WHY we are who we are and ask ourselves if this is truly who we wish to be. We are what we do.

We cannot demand change, but consider: You know that something you do is distressing, annoying or upsetting to your partner. Would it not behoove you to ask yourself is the thing you do so important to you that you would forsake the happiness or contentment of one you love and care for, simply to keep on doing it?

First, thank you for the invite Raver, to this wonderful post. Second I’ll apologize if I simply recount others opinions; I did peruse the replies, but did not read all of them in detail (please accept my apology)

I’ve two main points in relationships… first, what is the first thing we want to hear after we say I Love You. Well, most people I know, would say that they want to hear “I love you too”. It’s very painful, if after you say I love you, you get silence or an “OK, I know” (I’ve gotten that one). We want to hear the I love you too response SO MUCH sometimes that we do almost anything to get it. That ‘anything’ includes becoming someone you are not - or at least putting forth an image of what you think that other person loves… so when they do say, “I love you too” you are filled with love and gratitude… and you keep the persona… you keep the persona as long as you can. Then one day down the road… you grow tired of of that persona - you miss the real YOU. So you start to change back… Your partner who fell in love with someone differents starts to say, “I don’t even KNOW YOU, anymore”… and that is the beginning of the end of alot of relationships. Be your