state help: I would like to know what peoples opinions are on the combination of Church and State. - Help.com

Think it would end up like the Empire from Star Wars. With lots of witch hunts. Loooootttsss of witch hunts.

Are you for or against church and state being combined?

THis may get interesting, when I have more time I will come along. btw I am against the mix of the two.

I meant witch hunts metaphorically. Meaning people being falsely accused and hunted down to be killed off.

I think that was more of an isolated incident, so It may not be overly valid in your debate.

I am a Christian and I am against it because if they were to be intertwined then one would have power over the other. This would not be good, while our constitution allows for state churches and we did have them for a bit, if we were to have them now the outcome would prove disastrous. Imagine having a Hindu state neighboring a Muslim state; there would be riots.

What about prayer in schools? Touchy subject. At first to some it may sound like we need it. On the contrary, some faiths require a ritual or ceremony to pray, we would be having seances(sp?) and drug use there as a result. (I did not group the two together for any particular reason)

Some people claim that the use of a particular drug or drugs is required of them by their religion.

There is more, but I have to get to school.

Religion is a form of politics (if you look carefully at any religious text it’s a guideline for living that is relevent to the tribal and more basic times when they were written). So a combination of church and state would be rather bizarre… like a slice of cheddar cheese, served on a slice of red leicester cheese.

France have a great policy. If you are within the religious order (monks, reverends, vicars, nuns, etc etc) then by choosing religion, you forfeit your political rights and are not allowed to vote. This stops religious zealists from getting into power. It also allows a much more strategic and thoughtful process to be used in politics (if that’s possible!) as the “excuse” of “In the Name of God” cannot be used to justify any move.

Those are my thoughts. I wish I had more, but there’s just not enough space in my head to think about more than 1 thing at a time ;op

The reason that the US consitution as a clause, is because they had seen how the state could abuse its power to enforce specific denominational beliefs– een to the point of murdering those who were or were not part of the Chuch of England or Catholica church, depending upon who was in power.

I completely agree that this means that morality an specific religious beliefs cannot be enforced. However, I do not think this means that a person cannot express their beliefs as a consituent or even a leader, as long as that person is open and tolerant of other belief systems. Too often we suppress diversity in the name of fairness, which is inappropriate over-policiatl correctness.

Well put, my friend.

Thank you… and I liked what you had to say as well… very balanced.

[quote Sir Cody †]Imagine having a Hindu state neighboring a Muslim state; there would be riots.quote] India and Pakistan’s dessimation of Kashmir is a perfect example.

All the constitution says is that the government can’t make any laws concerning religion.

Bad idea. Very bad. To see y, just look at history. People haven’t changed since then.

I think that they should be separate. If the government started to intervene in religion…whereas it was part of a governmental mandate sort of thing, then it would just escalate. Within time, the government would have stricter rules on it….and they would use our country’s “fallen morality” as an excuse to rule with religion. Soon after that, it would become a requirement that people be a member of a religion….then not just “any” religion, but the one chosen by the government….then people who didn’t follow that certain religion set forth by the government would be punished. It would get out of control if the government had any say over people’s religious rights.

How is the US not a theocracy right now? You can’t testify in court without swearing on the Bible, there are Bibles in every hotel nightstand, our money says, “In God We Trust”, there are Christian churches every few feet, entire religious practices have been banned because they involve something illegal (pot, ho ska tea, peyote) and yet Christians break laws in large groups every other week, (child abuse, amongst others) and hardly anything but a smack on the wrist, all of our national ceremonies involve mentioning God in some way, there are billboards advertising for God every five miles on the highway, some states actually require one to acknowledge a higher power before they can hold a political office, people are allowed to come to my house and bang on my front door at six in the morning on the weekend to scream at me about God, half the radio and a good chunk of TV is dedicated to the Christian God, our entire country nearly shuts down on any Christian holidays, but any other religion’s holidays are brushed into the corner so they don’t annoy the Christians, people are flying skywriters to preach god in the sky, people write graffiti preaching, people stand on the corner and preach, people haunt college campuses and preach, people are so religiously brainwashed that they think Obama is Islamic, and for some reason, THAT MATTERS TO THEM, every presidential speech ends with “God bless America, They’re trying to teach the Bible in science classes, they sing only religious songs in school choirs, massive blockbuster films are made with spirituality thrown in at the last second for no reason (I am Legend and Signs are good examples), entire groups of people are being denied rights because Christianity says they’re bad, our pledge of allegiance is more of a prayer than anything, and I nearly got arrested for refusing to stand for or say it once.

So someone tell me how we have any separation of church and state right now, because if I have to list any more, I’m gonna puke.

I have what some might call a radical view on this subject.

Every time the New Testament refers to political governments, it uses third person (ie. they, them, etc.) It is my understanding that political government should be totally outside of the church. The Christian is commanded to “love your enemies, bless them that curse you, return good for evil, etc.” I believe this literally means any one who is against you. How can I go to war and shoot terrorists or even be a part of a government that does such and at the same time be loving those terrorists? While I believe God allows governments to suppress evil doing (Romans 13), I do not believe it is proper for a Christian to do so.

Any one who wants to may feel free to question me more on this.

Every theocracy has created misery and fear for its inhabitants. Power corrupts, and theocracies facilitate absolute power.

Not every Theocracy

Sir Cody, I cannot think of any exceptions at the moment. The Catholic Church had a theocracy for a while, and spilled an ocean of blood. John Calvin set up the “Geneva Theocracy” and executed religious dissidents. The Mormons participated in a bloody massacre of white settlers. We are well familiar with the Middle Eastern “Islamic Republics” that imprison Christians for “blaphemy” (Pakistan is one of the worst offenders).

When you have a theocracy, the leader claims to receive a revelation from God . . . and then bad things begin to happen.

My favorite form of government? A “benign dictatorship” with God as the supreme ruler. I’ve had to reluctantly admit that our “republican” form of government in the USA is ineffective, because it opens so many opportunities for graft and corruption . . . and Congress is about as corrupt as it gets.

chev.jame wrote:
and Congress is about as corrupt as it gets.

I saw a list back in 03 of the crimes the then-members of congress had committed. If anyone knows how to find that sort of list again, for the current members, please let me know.

Here’s something you might find interesting: http://www.wwco.com/~dda/criminals.php

What about ancient Israel?

Xeno Dragon wrote:
How is the US not a theocracy right now? You can’t testify in court without swearing on the Bible, … our pledge of allegiance is more of a prayer than anything, and I nearly got arrested for refusing to stand for or say it once.

So someone tell me how we have any separation of church and state right now, because if I have to list any more, I’m gonna puke.

Xeno, although I think you slip into rant a little here, I see your point. It is true that the “state religion” is Christian, whether enforced or not. Obviously, those who composed the constitution were not compeltely able to concieve of the country including such diverse religion (or atheist)beliefs when they crafted many of the documents. They were primarily thinking of different “brands” of Christianity. So it does permeate the culture and many of our seminal documents.

However, I still do not think that the US is technically a theocracy. Although someone might have been abusing his or her power in your case,one should not be arrested for standing and saying the pledge, and there are many people who would fight for the right of a person to choose not to.

And I would argue that compared to many countries,people who do not believe in Christanity in the USA are treated better than people who diverge from the primary religion in their own country.

And I would say that those who are true Christian leaders do not see their responbility to chase away or persecute all who disagree, but to look to their faith as a place to seek wisdom and compassion as they make decisions. I would say real Chrisitans are more secure in God’s power to attract believers through love.

(Glad to see you back! You always bring an element of challenge to the table :-) )

I see what you mean, but no. See, there’s so much more to it than just what’s on the surface. It goes deeper than that. The ‘true Christians’ must be in hiding or something, because I don’t know many kind or loving Christians. I know some, but not many. And it’s not about being treated better as a minority here or not, it’s about equality. I don’t even care if other countries murder their minorities, that doesn’t mean we can treat them poorly here and get away with it because, “they’d have had it worse anywhere else”. If everyone is to be equal, then everyone needs to be represented equally, and the fact is, we’re not there yet. We still have an effectively governing religion. The Christian God is telling gay Americans who can and can’t be their family members. Most gays I know aren’t Christian at all. So this means the Christian God can tell Pagans, and Wiccans, and Atheists, and Buddhists and agnostics what to do, and that’s somehow NOT a theocratic system that’s running things?

Ancient Israel had a distinct secular ruler and priesthood, so it doesn’t qualify as a theocracy.

In the US, it wasn’t set up as distinctly “Christian” because so many of the founding fathers were deists. And they were deists because they were Freemasons.

There is a fairly large number of gays in my church, the Episcopal Church. The General Convention of the Episcopal Church elected a gay bishop in 2003.

I do not personally approve of the “gay lifestyle,” because I think it is physically and psychologically harmful. But I don’t judge gays. There are too many sins out there to single any particular one out–like the Catholic Church does on divorce. I believe in live and let live.

Isn’t a “deist” just a belief in God? Or is it a belief in different gods….as in I believe in a certain God, and another believes in a certain other god….?

If I remember a deist believes that God created everything, but decided to let things run on their own and that He does not “interfere”.

chev.jame wrote:
Ancient Israel had a distinct secular ruler and priesthood, so it doesn’t qualify as a theocracy.

What about Moses to the Judges of Israel?

If you ask me, the state interferes with church way too much.

jeffro_100 wrote:
If you ask me, the state interferes with church way too much.

Lol. I think you’re a little confused.

jeffro_100 wrote:
If you ask me, the state interferes with church way too much.

I agree with Xeno Dragon… I think it’s the other way around…