I have an interesting question that, although I would like for it to stay calm will probably end up in heated controversy. - Help.com

If you look at the featured post right now, it’s pretty much discussing the same question.

This has been done many many many many times. This will not end good.

I think there is a god, but I still think you should close this post. They come along every now and then, and never end happily.

That other one is still sort of going if you want to join in. These get old after a while… We definitely can’t handle more than one every day or two.

i know there isnt a god,,science has already proven that,,in the early stages of our evalution,,we couldnt understand certain things and blamed it on gods,,or a god,,,,the more we become non nomadic and started planting ourselves into communities,,the smarter of that society found it easy to control the masses with moral teachings said to be inspired by a god,and is a form of social control,,because in most social sects of our early human history there was no governing force but the religion formed by their eldest and wisest people,,kind of like a tall tale that goes around a camp fire and grows with someone adding something as they went,,god evolved just as we did,,except his evalution was of thought and the unknown

I try to stay out of those debates. They get pretty heated. To answer the question, I do believe in some sort of supreme being or some kind of master design. I’m not religious. I think there are some things that science cannot explain. I wont go further than that.

know what.

ok people are gonna sit and argue and give their philosophies and try to sound so smart because they know more than scientists do but i really don’t care.

i believe in God. i believe he created the world and has made it beautiful and people fail to see it in such an awesome and intricate way.

you all can continue arguing it out forever and ever but my faith is unwavering and i’m strong in what i believe.

hugebigma wrote:
Think about if you are wrong and the other side is right. What would happen to you? what would happen to them? What are your thoughts on that?

(if statements are involved here and there that I wont put in but hope you’ll assume)

God belief- You lose the possibilities that exist in doing good things just because they are good, not for some higher purpose or gain through doing the acts. You also live with the ‘god-fearing’ nature. Being humbled that we are just what we are and have come about through random occurrence has a certain beauty to it that you’ll never see.

NonGod belief- If you live your life as a ‘good’ individual how you see fit, I really don’t see much of a downfall since if you are judged by god you’ll still come out good. You will be GREATLY humbled if/when it is shown to you the ‘truth.’ Lose many hours trying to figure out other possibilities? Being partially exiled from community because of what you don’t believe in.

Just a few thoughts, I’m sure there is much more but that’s all I can come up with in a few minutes.

Honestly, god does and doesn’t exist. Fact is, we will never be able to prove it either way through science or not. Why? So what we evolved, but what if God made that happen and ‘planted the seed?’ No matter how you put it, there will always be room for a God to exist. Of course, certain held beliefs of God (like Christianity) will sooner or later meet their end but will be replaced with a more refined definition. (Also, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack so don’t try the logic argument. Logically we should all be Agnostic since we have no information either way)

So what does it come down to in belief? Just that. We can only make a random guess one way or the other. If you have problem making the choice, just go with what makes you happiest because its not like you cant change your mind in the future.

i have met so many of this kind of post, too many actually, that made me think, what is the purpose really? open discussion? just curious of what others thinks of on the subject matter? if so, why not just search and read on other posts? or add your opinion there even? or, is it just that so you can somehow prove or argue to your best that your opinion is in fact the ‘right one’ indeed?
well, you can have a go at it over and over really, and based on your own post there, i know that you actually understand that it won’t end with a definite conclusion because everyone reckons they are indeed ‘right’… and they are, actually, but maybe just in their own ways, to say otherwise just shows arrogance and intolerance basically.

I kind of did with the first part there. I gave Ying but not Yang. If after death God exist but we have been true to our morals we can go before him and been seen well. If not, then not so well

Ah, but you said belief in God. You didn’t say belief in a Christian God

Well, I haven’t ever read the Bible and really don’t ever intend to (no offense) so I’m at a failing to elaborate more on that point. If you would, could you give me a rough outline of what fate a nonbeliever that has lead a good life would have?

By the way Zoo, its for fun :P Also, hearing other peoples ideas in semi-real time will make you think deeper about your own beliefs and help refine them so you gain there as well. Of course, that requires an open mind and a good natured discussion which hopefully this continues to be

be careful with that ‘will happen’ phrasing :P

Well, then if you take it that way the risks are just that much higher for us nonbelievers. Kind of makes us sad hero’s if you take it from a third person view. Still, even if general Christianity has it right, I don’t think these denomination will go to hell. No matter how you look at it, even if Christianity was right in the beginning, there have been far to many revisions and reworks of the belief to not account for mistakes and if God is ‘good’ then he will not punish ‘good’ people. Yes we all have sins even if we are true to ourselves and our morals, still that doesn’t mean that we don’t make our own kinds of amends. So if God can know what it is we feel and think then he will know the truth. How can a pure God **** people that have had ‘better’ lives then others?

the ****’s were actually the verb for sending people to hell :P

i’ve read the bible,,several times matter of fact,,i use to believe in god,,but i had an apithany awhile back and began to question the word,,and if you read in genesis how god was suposed to have created evrything and then adam named all the animals,,they are all the animals we have with us today,,there isnt any mention of the animals during the jurasic or any of the previous periods,,there are many contridictions in the bible itself,,just saw what huge said,,scripture says all have sinned and come short of the glory of god,,thus rendering the salvation of christ a neccassary enity,,besides before we had a written language how did we keep up with god and salvation then,,it is when we started to keep history that these stories of god were told by writers,,the way i see god now is,,grand father universe-grand mother galaxy,,father sun-mother earth,,without those things we have no life,,and we are lucky this planet formed in the life zone distance from the sun,,thats why mars and venus are absent of inteligent life,,they were formed either to close or to far from the sun,,i take comfort that when i die,,my body will help other life continue,,such as a tree or plant life,,sense we dont die in the wild anymore(except on occation)to be scavenged by animals,,as far as my soul,,i find comfort that in dieing ends the cycle of knowing and peace is true bliss,,the end of all knowing is what i look forward to,,i dont want to watch down from a heaven just to keep seeing mysery and affliction torment people,,and the ever decreasing humanity toward one another

You ran into the same problem I did, you tried to say the word but Help.com didn’t like it haha

Well, thats a very literal translation and I actually didn’t know the whole reason behind the ‘one sin go to hell’ ideology. It makes me like the religion that much less sadly enough.

One question real quick though and that would be is God with everyone?

Somewhat, but not totally. It’s more a question of his omnipotence, his ability to ’see’ everything. Does that exist in Christian belief?

Also, I think Atheists and Agnostics would say its religious individuals that keep this world from becoming closer to a utopia then the messed up scenario we find ourselves in :P Don’t worry about saying things to me, I’m pretty used to going toe to toe with my friends over philosophy (which does include theology.)

Be back in about 10 mins

i too find myself in conversations on philosophy and theology,,ashur,,and the comparison of cultural differenr gods,,back to huge now,,the bible was written by man on mans time,,it wasnt written by god,,thus the 7 days were ment as 7 days,,and the animals were the animals of that time,,just a way of saying which came first,,the chicken or the egg,,people needed to know how animals got thier name,,so someone gave them an answer,,it was because it was accepted,,made it popular,,it wasnt because it was proved,,and the bible was written in a certain geographical area,,so they didnt know we had saber tooth tigers and mamoths over here,,things like that,,thats why certain animals didnt get mentioned in the adam story,,the god thing was accepted mostly because it comforted us to believe we could live forever and only our bodies die,,the bible wasnt even popular when it was written,,the other cultures believed in different gods and they still cling to those to this day,,its just easier to believe the bible because of what it promises,,thats why it has a conversion rate higher than other religions

One thing about that argument huge is that it doesn’t work with evolution (which has been proven). Our evidence puts us as survives of what killed the dinos and we see other species that survived every day.

But that argument will lead us in circles, let us not stray into that please. I’m wonder over your response to another question though huge and that being how do you know that your religion is right and every other is wrong? All have roughly the same support and unarguably the only reason you’re Christian is because you were raised as such.

I don’t believe in god. as to why, I will happily answer if you ask specifically, I just find it hard to say why without believers getting insulted.

Go ahead chunk, I’m sure you want to and as long as you don’t directly insult anyone it wont hurt anyone

Also, you cant just dangle ideas in front of people then not finish them… To those of us that crave knowledge it just isn’t nice :D

i think god got started by someone like con’fu’sus or buhda,,but earlier in time than them

my dogs howl evrytime they hear a siren,,long before i hear it,,when its gone they stop,,its just dogs have more acute hearing

Well, there was a good chance that you were but that’s fine. Also, just saying random things happen when you ask doesn’t make something true. Its like saying that a child being born the same moment the a-bombs were dropped means they are destructive. Unconnected events are just that, unconnected. I’ve taken enough math classes to know well the chances of things happening and it doesn’t lead to a very solid footing for a full fledged belief.

I’ve lived in a city long enough to know that the chances aren’t very bad. Also, I would take a police siren as a bad omen instead of a good one for what a police siren actually entails.

happens every day all around our nation,,dogs have sensative ears,,you were just needing to believe and let yourself believe that as a sign

Yikes, stay away from concrete when arguing in defense of religion. There is nothing concrete about any beliefs one way or the other.

ashur said it better,,usually when a siren goes by means somethin bad happened,,not good

Do you have to ask huge :D

Also, I was saying that neither ‘faith’ nor ‘random occurrence’ were concrete reasons so stating something ‘less concrete’ would be like a sponge or something. Just giving you some tips from this side of the fence on phrasing so you can give others a better test that I hope they’ll pass to whatever makes their lives better.

Ashur wrote:
Go ahead chunk, I’m sure you want to and as long as you don’t directly insult anyone it wont hurt anyoneAlso, you cant just dangle ideas in front of people then not finish them… To those of us that crave knowledge it just isn’t nice :D

as a kid I had an imaginary friend and I use to think he went
everywhere with me, and that I could talk to him and he could hear me,
and that he could grant me wishes and stuff. Then I grew up… and
stopped going to church ( Kimmy Carr)

I have felt a presence, but I saw it as natural. Why would I see it as supernatural? ONly reason I can see is so I can continue to put all my hopes and dreams into a safe place, a place that can’t be affected by reality.

i was brought up going to church and brainwashed by the majic that was told to me about the bible,,just because something isnt true doesnt mean you cant believe in it,,its what happens when you reach the point that you see the truth and deny the impresioms that steared you wrong in the beginning because you werent more informed,,or given other alternative explinations,,i think god in truth is just a way of explaining the pshycic connection we all share in ourselves,,like a mother feels when her child dies away from home,,or a hunter actualy feels the deer before he comes into hearing or view,,when the hair stands up on the back of your neck,,intution along with our ability to have abstrtact thought is why it got labeled as god

Actually my point was why is YOUR God THE God and not every other religions God right? Thing is, I think something ‘more’ does exist but its not that of a Christian God. As Chunk just quoted, the Christian view has gotten dated as we (humans) have matured as a race. What we MIGHT do next is realize that just because one religion doesn’t seem to be right it doesn’t invalidate some of their beliefs.

This is my last post, so thats why my wording has finally become my beliefs. Christians aren’t right because of the sole fact that they don’t make sense in areas. The phrase ‘god-fear’ should never exist for ‘good’ people with a ‘good’ God. This, as well as several other flaws, will be the death of Christianity someday. However, I hope that we get far enough in our thoughts to not knock off the idea’s and dreams of something else just because we have no evidence of it.

So the ultimate question of this conversation is does God exist and I will state again the only real truth that we have. Yes and no. Both. God exist if nothing else because we have created him but in those with the absence of belief God is also absent. Really just ask yourself what you’re happy with and don’t limit the option of God as just the Christian belief, seek your own truths and find your own answers.

And on that I will say good night.

in the beginning darwins book was darwins theory,,now that darwin is proven,,it should be easy to see

hugebigma wrote:
could you prove the presence’s existence? if not, then it was most definately supernatural. think about it. its was there, but it wasnt a natural occurrence. what else, then, could it be?

what else could it be?
have you considered whats makes people able to dream?

I get a good feeling when I visit certain places, I touched a cherished object and felt someones presence, I took method acting lessons and “felt” other personalities take control. I have also studied the human brain functions in my professional life.

I wouldn’t consider these felt “presense’s” unknown, let alone supernatural.

hugebigma wrote:
darwin is not proven.. never has been.. it is still a theory, just as evolution is a theory. Now i must go at least for time being. it’s time for church ovaer here. You are intelligent.. if misguided.. just as ashur is. God bless

darwin unproven? there is a fair amount of evidence to say he exisited. Most christians don’t refute that. his theory is accepted my many christains too.

I understand you gain a lot from your faith, and I fully see it as everyones path to believe as they wish, but before you lable me as misguided, you should take care as to what you are saying, and why you are saying it.

yes darwins theory of evolution has been proven,,he himself proved through the study of the golopagos islands,,and has sense been proven by many other scientists,,but all you have to do is watch discovery channel/animal planet/science channel awhile or read the studies to see that it has been proven

rwdeadman wrote:
yes darwins theory of evolution has been proven,,he himself proved through the study of the golopagos islands,,and has sense been proven by many other scientists,,but all you have to do is watch discovery channel/animal planet/science channel awhile or read the studies to see that it has been proven

there is a vast amount of evidence that fits the theory, and almost none that doesn’t. But unless if can be reproduced at any time, it can’t get the status of scientifically proven. ( note: I am a Charles Darwin fan on facebook)

Ashur wrote:
What we MIGHT do next is realize that just because one religion doesn’t seem to be right it doesn’t invalidate some of their beliefs.
.

baby and the bath water.

evolution happens at a relatively slow rate,,because of the isolation at the golopagos its easier to see the changes take place,,because of what he wrote,,we can go there today and see the changes that those animals evolved to fit their ever evolving environment,,evolition is reproducable and has been done,,our technology today on gene theoropy is based on evolutionary jumps,,to be able to determine our future evolution by manipulation is the new darwins theory,,we continue to evolve with evry generation

Ashur wrote:
Actually my point was why is YOUR God THE God and not every other religions God right?

Asked my parents this when I was eight.

Ashur wrote:
God exist if nothing else because we have created him

was the only answer I could come up with.

hugebigma wrote:
I still have to go but i would like to tell you how to increase your self worth. The way do do so is take the power of your worth out of your hands. I do not feel worth unless that worth is through God the greatest power ever. (isn’t it annoying how everything seems to lead back to God. Maybe it’s a hint)

UNderstood, you have to go, but thanks for trying to help me.

got a point there, and I am working on this. The biblical god for me is based on a reading of the bible, and that guy could never be a friend of mine even if I saw it as more than an anolgy. My lack of self esteem is most likely caused by investing all my energy into defending against parents who needed the imaginary friend, so the god idea has even less appeal for me.

we are an ape species and that is what darwins theory started as,,scientists have found our links of evelution,,lucy,,is a prime example,,,have you even read darwin and seen the graphs,,archeology has given us proof we evolved,,we didnt evolve from apes,,we were already apes,,we just evolved in a different bread of ape,a gorilla’s not a chimp,,nor a chimp an orang,,but earlier bones shows that gorrillas use to be giants compared to thier present day status,,as we are larger than our previous versions,,there once was a giant sloth,,now we have small ones,,we use to have saber tooths,now we have mountain lions,,diar wolves became the wolves we have today,,by the way the single cell animals out number us greatly and have more survivability should we have another extenxtion period take place,,your making comments on what you havent read enough on or you would have seen the lucy story,,which also shows other bones dated after her but differenrt from her and so on all the way to what we are today

hugebigma wrote:
ok yes, evolution in itself is a natural occurence. look at dogs for example. but the creation og humans coming from a single cell and evolving from apes is an entirely different concept. the “evolution” we speak of from the galopogus islands occured within seperate species. on specie did not become another one. and yet, thats what the darwin THEORY is implying happened. a notion like this is insane. i find it humorous that your scientists can find all the peices exept for one. God has a sense of humour. what’s funny about it is that mankind will search for that link forever and never find it. just to die and discover that the “crazy people that beilieve in ‘imaginary friends’” were right. would that stink if you died and were wrong? if i die and i’m wrong than nothing happens to me bcuz evrything’s over anyway. I win both ways. You have a 50/50 chance. And with that I will leave this post for now. I will be back after my church though. God bless

Full respect to you, you are clearly intelligent and thinking about this. You sound like you have a fine church community and get a lot out of it, so only read the following if you are actively seeking. I believe you are, and that’s why you wrote the post. If you are comfortable that your belief system can handle some new information, the read on.

What you are saying about evolution being contained within species… sounds like this is straight out of the modern Christan apologetics works and not your own reasoned thinking based on the facts. Only recently did this concession from out right denial of evolution happen. Do your own reading if you want.

Your 2nd point is called pascals wager. If you hadn’t heard it before, then pretty cool to come up with it. If you want, read the wikipedia article about it.

Not trying to push anything, but I see that your post was asking others what they believe, and the reasons why they hold those beliefs. You have also actively and intelligently responded to replies along these lines. If you aren’t interested in learning more about the history and responses around your ideas, then accept my apology and please ignore.

rwdeadman wrote:
archeology has given us proof we evolved

I would say overwhelming circumstantial evidence evolved, not proof.

I would say though that there is proof that all the literal readings of creation myths are false.

awesome, cool, beautiful, useful but not literally true.

you might have a hard time thinking we evolved from a single cell animal in the beginning,,but i find it harder to believe a majical force put his hands in the clay and shaped in his image and brought it to life,,i’ve seen a single cell grow and multiply,,i havent seen a majical force creat life,,our dna says we are apes,not clay

lol,,planet of the apes takes on a whole new meaning when you find out you are one,,lol

rwdeadman wrote:
lol,,planet of the apes takes on a whole new meaning when you find out you are one,,lol

we aren’t apes. We are closely related, but we aren’t apes. ( yes I have seen the videos of bonobos working a lighter better than I can after a few drinks, but we still aren’t apes)

But I hear you.

wasnt thinking about bonobos,,besides he’s a chimp,,
human-ape
gorrilla-ape
chimp-ape
orangatan-ape
couple others i forgot,,but we are all of the ape family

rwdeadman wrote:
wasnt thinking about bonobos,,besides he’s a chimp,,human-apegorrilla-apechimp-apeorangatan-apecouple others i forgot,,but we are all of the ape family

I stand corrected. According to to the standard scientific deliniation, we are indeed a type of ape.

hugebigma wrote:
i just know that it makes more sense to believe in something, to trust in something, than nothing at all

yes it does. I wish I could go back a take the blue pill ( or the apple from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in another story).

But having a mind free from having to maintain so much confusion and denial, and being able to wonder in the world of sceince without twitches - well thats good too.

blue pill,,lol,,you want to stay in the matrix huh,,lol

rwdeadman wrote:
blue pill,,lol,,you want to stay in the matrix huh,,lol

yeah. I think its because even though I never believed, I have only recently been fully flushed from my lovely warm pod. I am still in that “covered in needles and looking pasty and sullen” phase. As soon as trinity falls for me and I start doing foo, I’ll be sorted.

I am God.

I can be the cause of wonderful things, and I can be the cause of terrible things (muhahahahaha)

If you tell me to sacrifice my first born son, I’ll tell you to **** off.

IF you tell me to be good to my neighboor, well… you can wander around feeling smug that I obey your commands.

think about it,,he is a trampy god,,i dont think his commandments would be along those lines ,,lol

chunkymove wrote:
If you tell me to sacrifice my first born son, I’ll tell you to **** off.

IF you tell me to be good to my neighboor, well… you can wander around feeling smug that I obey your commands.

What if I said please?

Hehe and I meant it in a more general way, as in people in general can change the shape of the world around them.

We’re doing what ‘God’ does.

I looked at the claimed stories and abilities of god and thought “what a brat” but saw no evidence.

I saw the actual real things attributed to god and thought “I can do that”.

pray/meditate
cake bake sales
decent and moral
positive creative power in the world
ability to notice positive coincidences

infact, I wrote a big post about this and collected hundreds of practical things that meant god to people, and almost all of them I had already and started do most of the rest.

Having completed the “joy of surrender”. Sounds weird, but its the rush you get in the mosh pit dancing when you loose yourself. I want that in everyday sometimes instead of over analise everything

no no no no no no no…..walking away now.

There is always a higher power whether it be god, a tree, budda or what have you it all depends on your preference and all depends where your faith lies.

smoogie. wrote:
no no no no no no no…..walking away now.

whys that? based on something I said?

a resounding yes! there is indeed a God! what he is to me? God. plain and simple. my ever loving God w/c makes my life “livable” and all. to live w/o him is unthinkable, unbearable.

chunkymove wrote:

smoogie. wrote:
no no no no no no no…..walking away now.

whys that? based on something I said?

Paranoid much? Just don’t want another religious discussion.

smoogie. wrote:

chunkymove wrote:

smoogie. wrote:
no no no no no no no…..walking away now.

whys that? based on something I said?

Paranoid much? Just don’t want another religious discussion.

Paranoid? would seem so. Thanks for clearing that up. Maybe I can now take a few of the locks off my door.

chunkymove wrote:

smoogie. wrote:

chunkymove wrote:

smoogie. wrote:
no no no no no no no…..walking away now.

whys that? based on something I said?

Paranoid much? Just don’t want another religious discussion.

Paranoid? would seem so. Thanks for clearing that up. Maybe I can now take a few of the locks off my door.

Check your shout box. {=0)

lol Ii think he has more important things to do.

Meh. Given that entrenched athiests are, if anything more annoying than hardcore religious folks, what with their insistence that their beleif system is somehow “more valid” than a religious one and their insufferable ******* smugness and utter misunderstanding of scientific theory as they show us all how science somehow “proves” them right, well that’s almost as annoying as the hardcore “we’re right cos of what a bunch of drug taking social outcasts wrote down thousands of years ago” crowd. It’s all a matter of beleif and faith, and no matter what side is trying to force its dogma down your throat it’s as annoying as hell.

To each their own

MJF wrote:
Meh. Given that entrenched athiests are, if anything more annoying than hardcore religious folks, what with their insistence that their beleif system is somehow “more valid” than a religious one and their insufferable ******* smugness and utter misunderstanding of scientific theory as they show us all how science somehow “proves” them right.

This is a subtle distinction that may be hard to get, but can you see the difference between believing in “no god” and not “believing in god”. the first is active, the 2nd passive. A rock doesn’t believe in god, and its not agnostic.

I come across people who believe and I go “huh, please tell me more, I’d like to understand” and it frustrates them. I sometimes admire their community and joy. I have read many holy books, and I have worked in scientifically published research. I do think my knowledge framework is more valid, of course I do, or I would change to the one I saw as more valid.

I understand your reply was more aimed at harassing atheist, who I agree are annoying, but I wanted to address some of your point.
“speak the truth with love” (jesus)

chunkymove wrote:

MJF wrote:
Meh. Given that entrenched athiests are, if anything more annoying than hardcore religious folks, what with their insistence that their beleif system is somehow “more valid” than a religious one and their insufferable ******* smugness and utter misunderstanding of scientific theory as they show us all how science somehow “proves” them right.

This is a subtle distinction that may be hard to get, but can you see the difference between believing in “no god” and not “believing in god”. the first is active, the 2nd passive. A rock doesn’t believe in god, and its not agnostic.

I come across people who believe and I go “huh, please tell me more, I’d like to understand” and it frustrates them. I sometimes admire their community and joy. I have read many holy books, and I have worked in scientifically published research. I do think my knowledge framework is more valid, of course I do, or I would change to the one I saw as more valid.

I understand your reply was more aimed at harassing atheist, who I agree are annoying, but I wanted to address some of your point.
“speak the truth with love” (jesus)

In all honesty I have no problem with 99% of athiests, just as I have no problem with 99% of religious types, and yeah, I get the distinction between the two, obviously. My point was mostly directed to the close-mindedness of the more hardcore elements of both camps, I have little patience for anyone who refuses to even entertain the notion that they may in fact be wrong about anything. It annoys me, as does the attempts by some to credit (or discredit) religious paradigms and scientific paradigms with various, utterly ludicrous atributes. I refuse to beleive that science is somehow the tool of the devil, or the last, true bastion of rigourous and methodical enquiry, just as I refuse to beleive that all religion ever is somehow dark and evil, or that it is some font of morals and goodness without wich we would all be doomed. They are both tools for the examination and inquiry of the human condition and this world we live in, the scientist can be eisily as close minded as the most bigoted and dangerous preacher (phrrenology anyone? Or the scientific racism theorists?) and the religious leader can be just as amoral and use his power and knowlege just as badly as the most diabolical “mad scientist”. As someone who has (I assume) at least some grounding in epistimology I gather that you can appreciate my veiwpoint that any human system of enquiry is going to be flawed on some levels, and positioning one as not only superior to all others but somehow infallible must also strike you as ludicrus, as it does me. I say we reclaim the rather arbitary labels of both “religion” and the diffuse philosophies of “atheism” from the loudmouth idiots on both sides, who do little more than parrot theories and beleifs without bothering to examine them properly and give their own cause a worse name than the “opposition” ever could

MJF wrote:
They are both tools for the examination and inquiry of the human condition and this world we live in, the scientist can be eisily as close minded as the most bigoted and dangerous preacher (phrrenology anyone? Or the scientific racism theorists?) and the religious leader can be just as amoral and use his power and knowlege just as badly as the most diabolical “mad scientist”. As someone who has (I assume) at least some grounding in epistimology I gather that you can appreciate my veiwpoint that any human system of enquiry is going to be flawed on some levels, and positioning one as not only superior to all others but somehow infallible must also strike you as ludicrus, as it does me.

Read the whole thing twice, but just quoting this bit to save space.
I thought about not posting my above reply as I knew you were refering to me, but I glad I did, as that was one of the best summeries I’ve read.

what is agnostic

i personally believe both the scientific and biblical version of how we all came to be, we were made the way the scientists say but by the power of God. idk about evolving from germs or apes but the whole big bang theory, i think their was a big bang but God made the earth that way, and how the bible says it was 7 days, we dont know how long they considered a day was or if it was even translated properly.

rwdeadman wrote:
what is agnostic

“A word first used by Professor Huxley, to indicate one who believes nothing which cannot be demonstrated by the senses” ( google definitions )

Often seen as someone who believes that god can’t be proven or dis proven

MPOV, is that by these definitions, all agnostics are also atheists, as they don’t actively believe in god.

Other people say that its about proof, so you can believe or not, and you can think you can prove or not, giving four possible camps.

I believe the god I grew up with ( but not all gods as there are so many vague descriptions) is easily disprovable, and I also don’t believe in any other gods, making me…

active atheist about one god.
passive atheist agnostic about all other gods as I don’t believe in them, but don’t believe most can be dis proven.

i dont believe in the big bang theory,,i think the cosmos has always been there eternal past and eternal future,,just in constant change and drift

thanx chunk,,now i know i’m not agnostic,,lol

rwdeadman wrote:
thanx chunk,,now i know i’m not agnostic,,lol

because?

Note, my definitions are often disagreed with at first, but I do see them as researched and correct.

i understand,,alot of what i wrote earlier is disagreed with,,lol

rwdeadman wrote:
i dont believe in the big bang theory,,i think the cosmos has always been there eternal past and eternal future,,just in constant change and drift

i think everything has been there too but that there are other dimensions and in was created by the big bang. like everything is in a constant just separated in other dimensions

chunkymove wrote:

MJF wrote:
They are both tools for the examination and inquiry of the human condition and this world we live in, the scientist can be eisily as close minded as the most bigoted and dangerous preacher (phrrenology anyone? Or the scientific racism theorists?) and the religious leader can be just as amoral and use his power and knowlege just as badly as the most diabolical “mad scientist”. As someone who has (I assume) at least some grounding in epistimology I gather that you can appreciate my veiwpoint that any human system of enquiry is going to be flawed on some levels, and positioning one as not only superior to all others but somehow infallible must also strike you as ludicrus, as it does me.

Read the whole thing twice, but just quoting this bit to save space.
I thought about not posting my above reply as I knew you were refering to me, but I glad I did, as that was one of the best summeries I’ve read.

Thanks, Way I see it as long as you’re not too dogmatic or preachy you can beleive the world is a specialised variant of cream cheese for all I care!

i havent seen proof of other dimensions yet,,i dont even think a black hole can get us there,,paralel universes and such seem far reaching

i do believe that in other galaxies there has to be other solar systems that support inteligent life,,maybe even in our own milky way

rwdeadman wrote:
i havent seen proof of other dimensions yet,,i dont even think a black hole can get us there,,paralel universes and such seem far reaching

Most of quantum physics and the like does exist purely in a theoretical realm, with little or no real opurtunities for empyrical research, but don’t forget all scientific paradigms must start somewhere!

hugebigma wrote:
i love the way this post is going, its going exactly the way i hoped.. not a whole lot of anger just opinions and supporting ideas.. great!

Yeah, wins all round.

hugebigma wrote:
i truly dont wpnder whether or not God is real.. God i just as real to me as the cpu im typing on right now. and i dont c myself in denial. i would tink that an agnostic would have a lot more to worry about on whether or not there is God at all. i may be interpretting your comment wrongly.. could you please clarify what you’re saying?

Well, as a kid, I heard about god, and how central he was to life, so I looked into the bible. I was taught a literal interpretation and had a difficult life style to match.

The bible god really is painful brat a lot of the time, so hes scary to have at the top of a moral guidance system.
Also, the science that can ge be learnt while not allowing the the bible to become metaphor is very limited.

No more worry as an agnostic than about Thor or Zeus, the only worry is when conversing publicly with believers. I have been stoned before if you know what I mean. People don’t usually like have their beliefs pulled into the cold hard light of day any more than they like talking about their relationship with their mother.

Can you explain more about your cpu and god example. Is it to do with that you can see it most of the, and you certainly can’t see it operating, but you know it there because the computer works?

rwdeadman wrote:
i do believe that in other galaxies there has to be other solar systems that support inteligent life,,maybe even in our own milky way

yeah i believe that too but other dimensions lol. like planes, like the spiritual plane, like that. that their is intelligent life out there but on another dimension

i like greek gods,,just because i like the idea of pegasus,lol,,but dont like unicorns,,i’ll take myth over majic any day

MJF wrote:
Thanks, Way I see it as long as you’re not too dogmatic or preachy you can beleive the world is a specialised variant of cream cheese for all I care!

well if you have a powerful understanding of just how special you’re willing to let fit into your world view of cheese…

I hear you. I think if I was to believe in one thing, it would be that people should be able to believe in what ever they want. Sounds like a throw away line, but its about the extent of my beliefs. It’s just more fun that way.

sounds like a part of the decliration to me lol

or constitution,,freedom of religion thing

I really find even relativity almost impossible to believe. I know intellectually that they use the idea that time isn’t constant to improve gps, but still, its just wacked. And quantum? weirder than god.

rwdeadman wrote:
i havent seen proof of other dimensions yet,,i dont even think a black hole can get us there,,paralel universes and such seem far reaching

i dont think its far reaching its just not easily thought up, that you can’t explain it away in scientific terms and thats what i think the problem is with most people. they put too much trust in science, no one ever questions what’s in school books or a math book they always question the bible because it can’t be explained by logic. logic cant explain everything, how can you logically explain falling in love or you intuition, deja vu? your dog knowing when your sad? time travel, you can logically explain that because no one knows how it works but it does just not in the way people have to logically think it, you dont have to physically go back in time to go back in time, or in the future. i think logic messes us up more

relativity is easier for me,,i can do the math on that one,,but quantum is more of a pain on the brain

rwdeadman wrote:
relativity is easier for me,,i can do the math on that one,,but quantum is more of a pain on the brain

maths yeah, but the idea of time not being something we made up like clocks, and that it slows down? Crazy. Yeah its testable and with a holiday up my sleave I might be able to do the maths, but…

the bible can be explained logicaly,,but cant be explained by scientific fact,,only disputed by science as the facts come in

rwdeadman wrote:
the bible can be explained logicaly,,but cant be explained by scientific fact,,only disputed by science as the facts come in

explained logically? Its seems to not be interally logically consistent. The usual response to this is mistranslation,

not its content,,but the reason why the bible came about can be explained logically,,and some of the content also is logical to be a social control,,another form of government when there wasnt any,,read what i wrote way back at the beginning of this blog,,i tried alot of logic in those answers

nonono wrote:
how can you logically explain falling in love or you intuition, deja vu? your dog knowing when your sad?

I can try and have done a fair bit of research and thinking about it. Each of these are covered in modern neuroscience books. I think many things are *better* left unexplained, like the punchline to a joke.

rwdeadman wrote:
not its content,,

understood

chunkymove wrote:

nonono wrote:
how can you logically explain falling in love or you intuition, deja vu? your dog knowing when your sad?

I can try and have done a fair bit of research and thinking about it. Each of these are covered in modern neuroscience books. I think many things are *better* left unexplained, like the punchline to a joke.

i dont think it explains it i think they just invent a reason for it, no one can really explain anything just give a reason for it, for example, molecules combining, you can predict them like their reactions and know how they can happen but you dont really understand how oxygen and hydrogen combine to make water as powerful as the mind is no one can fully grasp the actual combining

i can understand molecules combining,,thats compatable adhesion,,but the mind is far more complex in its abilities and functions

back to the god thing,,i’ve heard many debate on if animals have souls were do they go when they die,,on this subject i believe animals have souls and emotions,,in turn sense we are animals too,,wouldnt they go where we go

nonono wrote:
i dont think it explains it i think they just invent a reason for it, no one can really explain anything just give a reason for it, for example, molecules combining, you can predict them like their reactions and know how they can happen but you dont really understand how oxygen and hydrogen combine to make water as powerful as the mind is no one can fully grasp the actual combining

ok, to this level, I can not explain. I can only explain as much as I can explain how an car or a pencil work. The thing I don’t understand with theists, is that they accept science down the molecular level, but there is still and unknown, so the call it the christian god. That god was clearly described, and it is not compatible with a scientific understanding they have.

Yes, there are unknown, but for creationist, that the end. For scientists, its the beginning. If you allow scientific knowledge to describe the working of the universe, god has to shrink back every time we look closer at the world around us. At some point people switch and say, “god is nature” at which point I go “wellll, ok then” and wonder what motivates this thread to cling to. Then I remember that I’m on help.com due to the depression that came from being abandoned by my community, and then I am conflicted about allowing others to see what I see as the obvious truth.

rwdeadman wrote:
back to the god thing,,i’ve heard many debate on if animals have souls were do they go when they die,,on this subject i believe animals have souls and emotions,,in turn sense we are animals too,,wouldnt they go where we go

all evidence says yes, they rot in the ground like we do, and we live on in our friends and families minds.

Bogdan wrote:
I think there is a god, but I still think you should close this post. They come along every now and then, and never end happily.

Mine went ok…. stayed decent and respectful for quite a few days!

If you are interested poster and what some people had to say in a calm fashion (for the most part) check out my post from a few days back :D

http://help.com/post/224469-what-is-g…

i dont think theres a ‘god’ but theres something out there, in another universe maybe? who knows, we have no proof of a god, we have scientific reasons to how the earth was created, but theres scientific reasons to everything, so yes i think there is something out there, living a life, if there was a god, where did he/she come from, if i take this any further its going to go into all of my other deep thoughts/beliefs and you can look at them in another post =]

oh and another thing, if there is a god, that means adam + eve were the first people on earth completely skipping the dinosoars because they lived among the animals we have now, so what up with that?

Maybe God was the head dinosaur. Goddosaurus Rex or something. I did quite a lot of religious studies and don’t recall anything that directly contradicts that.

I’ve got to a stage in my life were I believe purely in me.

I believe that there is a God, and that is a being more powerful and more knowledgable than anything else who created the world we live in. he is the will behind the universe we are in, he is the writer of the novel of life… sounds corny huh lol, sorry wasn’t my intention :)

i believe what i believe because i think the idea of God is of absolute necessity, its logical (meaning that it makes perfect sense to me) and furthur more i have faith in it (the other part of me as a human being other than my mind, which is my feelings, also tell me that there is a God) so its not just a mental proof but also an emotional one, which is even harder to proof.

smoogie. wrote:
I’ve got to a stage in my life were I believe purely in me.

where*

There we go again!
Posters posting about God… and then putting words into other people’s mouths….

“And yet you do not even entertain the idea that it could be supernatural”

I think you will find like.me.or.hate.me is entertaining the idea the if there was a God it would indeed be supernatural!

“It is impossible for an earthly brain to fathom that”
How so?

just kidding, sorry

Who are you talking to now?

ummmm. . . i just got severely confused in this post. . .

hugebigma wrote:
that is the point i made much earlier in this post. So i agree with moth because if you can totally prove the existence of something using natural processes… he is not supernatural and therefore is not God

i think belief in God is afterall a belief, and that requires a feeling, because the definition of belief is thinking that something is right or wrong even without sufficient evidence. because if i tell you for example that water boils at 100 degress and you see a proof, there is no room for belief then. you wouldn’t say “yes i believe that water boils at 100 degrees”

you get my point

hugebigma wrote:
and, dougie, i was not referring to him not beleiving that God is supernatural.. surely he is. But i was referring that the first cell in the idea of evolution was not superntaural so how, therefore, could it be in creation? and it is impossible for our earthly brain to fathom God simply because he is supernatural and we are natural. His understanding is so far above ours, it is not possible for us to comprehend Him. Much like a 4-year-old attempting to understand what true love is like

god couldnt have been here all along, space was an atom, it grew ect. to what it is now, its still growing, if god is supernatural then he has to still live on something sort of anyway, meteors and comets created the planets, the big bang created the earth, animals and water ect. came from cells and the cells came from the earth, so supernatural things a well known to be ghosts ect. so god had to have came from something (if there is a god) so where did he come from? again we are back to the begining.

I think you will find the 4 year olds know what true love is far better than most adults. And just because you personally feel that God is incomprehensible doesn’t make it so….

Also I believe love.me.or.hate.me is a she!

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
I think you will find the 4 year olds know what true love is far better than most adults. And just because you personally feel that God is incomprehensible doesn’t make it so….Also I believe love.me.or.hate.me is a she!

I AM =] your clever!

and its like.me.or.hate.me ;] close enough!

Sorry… I’ve been awake for 12 hours… the mind tends to go a little soft at that point ;)

cool i wish i could stay awake that long. . .

Moth wrote:

hugebigma wrote:
that is the point i made much earlier in this post. So i agree with moth because if you can totally prove the existence of something using natural processes… he is not supernatural and therefore is not God

i think belief in God is afterall a belief, and that requires a feeling, because the definition of belief is thinking that something is right or wrong even without sufficient evidence. because if i tell you for example that water boils at 100 degress and you see a proof, there is no room for belief then. you wouldn’t say “yes i believe that water boils at 100 degrees” you get my point

I would still say that!

Dougie the Pisces wrote:

Moth wrote:

hugebigma wrote:
that is the point i made much earlier in this post. So i agree with moth because if you can totally prove the existence of something using natural processes… he is not supernatural and therefore is not God

i think belief in God is afterall a belief, and that requires a feeling, because the definition of belief is thinking that something is right or wrong even without sufficient evidence. because if i tell you for example that water boils at 100 degress and you see a proof, there is no room for belief then. you wouldn’t say “yes i believe that water boils at 100 degrees” you get my point

I would still say that!

too right

What happens if God suddenly decides one day to alter the laws of physics slightly, and suddenly water now boils at 101 degrees?

What then?

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
What happens if God suddenly decides one day to alter the laws of physics slightly, and suddenly water now boils at 101 degrees?What then?

unfortunatly u didnt get the intention of the example

hugebigma wrote:
a 4-year old knows what true love is but not with the person he/she wants to marry. more they know what it is to love a family member etc. Supernatural literally means above nature. And i assume we are all agreed that humans are part of nature. So if God is above us, then how can we hope to understand him. To deny that fact doesnt evn make sense. You are talking without reason and with nothing to support your ideas

actually 4 year olds with boyfriends/girlfriends seem to treat them better than we do, they actually show their love/affection and their relationships work better than ours. =] i think its dead cute :)

hugebigma wrote:
a 4-year old knows what true love is but not with the person he/she wants to marry. more they know what it is to love a family member etc. Supernatural literally means above nature. And i assume we are all agreed that humans are part of nature. So if God is above us, then how can we hope to understand him. To deny that fact doesnt evn make sense. You are talking without reason and with nothing to support your ideas

I propose that while this supernatural world and god may exist, it doesn’t interact with realitiy in any way other than through the human mind, or we could measure it and it would become natural.

If its just in your head, then I am happy.

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
What happens if God suddenly decides one day to alter the laws of physics slightly, and suddenly water now boils at 101 degrees?What then?

it boils at 101 degrees. . .

chunkymove wrote:

hugebigma wrote:
a 4-year old knows what true love is but not with the person he/she wants to marry. more they know what it is to love a family member etc. Supernatural literally means above nature. And i assume we are all agreed that humans are part of nature. So if God is above us, then how can we hope to understand him. To deny that fact doesnt evn make sense. You are talking without reason and with nothing to support your ideas

I propose that while this supernatural world and god may exist, it doesn’t interact with realitiy in any way other than through the human mind, or we could measure it and it would become natural.If its just in your head, then I am happy.

what is reality? can you please clarify
you mean scientific evidence as reality?

chunkymove wrote:

hugebigma wrote:
a 4-year old knows what true love is but not with the person he/she wants to marry. more they know what it is to love a family member etc. Supernatural literally means above nature. And i assume we are all agreed that humans are part of nature. So if God is above us, then how can we hope to understand him. To deny that fact doesnt evn make sense. You are talking without reason and with nothing to support your ideas

I propose that while this supernatural world and god may exist, it doesn’t interact with realitiy in any way other than through the human mind, or we could measure it and it would become natural.If its just in your head, then I am happy.

i have something for you all to think about. . . if god existed none of us would know about him, cuz we cant see him, so if someone found out about him, HOW did they find out about him?

eh? eh? . . .theres a thinker ;]

Moth wrote:

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
What happens if God suddenly decides one day to alter the laws of physics slightly, and suddenly water now boils at 101 degrees?What then?

unfortunatly u didnt get the intention of the example

No I did get it thankyou very much.
It was simply a follow up question. And I’m just trying to promote out of the box thinking as always :P
Please, do not assume you can read people’s minds, and automatically understand what they do or don’t get!

hugebigma wrote:
a 4-year old knows what true love is but not with the person he/she wants to marry. more they know what it is to love a family member etc. Supernatural literally means above nature. And i assume we are all agreed that humans are part of nature. So if God is above us, then how can we hope to understand him. To deny that fact doesnt evn make sense. You are talking without reason and with nothing to support your ideas

Just because it doesn’t make sense to YOU, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.
Again… I’m not denying anything. And who says the God is necessarily above us?

Perhaps God is the combination of every living’s soul and the essence of life itself!
Now, don’t jump to conclusions and assume this is my opinion.
Again, I am simply promoting out of the box thinking!

if real, then can be tested and is natural
is not real, then why care?

I don’t see how god seems to slip past even this ever so simple idea

Dougie the Pisces wrote:

Moth wrote:

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
What happens if God suddenly decides one day to alter the laws of physics slightly, and suddenly water now boils at 101 degrees?What then?

unfortunatly u didnt get the intention of the example

No I did get it thankyou very much.It was simply a follow up question. And I’m just trying to promote out of the box thinking as always :PPlease, do not assume you can read people’s minds, and automatically understand what they do or don’t get!

hugebigma wrote:
a 4-year old knows what true love is but not with the person he/she wants to marry. more they know what it is to love a family member etc. Supernatural literally means above nature. And i assume we are all agreed that humans are part of nature. So if God is above us, then how can we hope to understand him. To deny that fact doesnt evn make sense. You are talking without reason and with nothing to support your ideas

Just because it doesn’t make sense to YOU, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.Again… I’m not denying anything. And who says the God is necessarily above us?Perhaps God is the combination of every living’s soul and the essence of life itself!Now, don’t jump to conclusions and assume this is my opinion.Again, I am simply promoting out of the box thinking!

good for you :)

chunkymove wrote:
if real, then can be tested and is naturalis not real, then why care?I don’t see how god seems to slip past even this ever so simple idea

good one!

Moth wrote:

Dougie the Pisces wrote:

Moth wrote:

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
What happens if God suddenly decides one day to alter the laws of physics slightly, and suddenly water now boils at 101 degrees?What then?

unfortunatly u didnt get the intention of the example

No I did get it thankyou very much.It was simply a follow up question. And I’m just trying to promote out of the box thinking as always :PPlease, do not assume you can read people’s minds, and automatically understand what they do or don’t get!

hugebigma wrote:
a 4-year old knows what true love is but not with the person he/she wants to marry. more they know what it is to love a family member etc. Supernatural literally means above nature. And i assume we are all agreed that humans are part of nature. So if God is above us, then how can we hope to understand him. To deny that fact doesnt evn make sense. You are talking without reason and with nothing to support your ideas

Just because it doesn’t make sense to YOU, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.Again… I’m not denying anything. And who says the God is necessarily above us?Perhaps God is the combination of every living’s soul and the essence of life itself!Now, don’t jump to conclusions and assume this is my opinion.Again, I am simply promoting out of the box thinking!

good for you :)

i second that! ;] i think that should be my signiture sign off on Help.com -> ;]

Moth wrote:
what is reality? can you please clarifyyou mean scientific evidence as reality?

anything we can interact with. If you interact by prayer and he only answeres by prayer and can’t do things like thors lightning bolts, then as far as everyone external to your head is concerned, it all in your head.

It is good for me Moth, because it shows that I am not narrow-minded.

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
It is good for me Moth, because it shows that I am not narrow-minded.

heh! ;P

Garfield135 wrote:
k im going

bye *waves* ;]

See ya *waves*

chunkymove wrote:
if real, then can be tested and is naturalis not real, then why care?I don’t see how god seems to slip past even this ever so simple idea

can be tested? if i ask you prove to me that you feel happy? what will you do? not everything in life measurable facts, and even those are not depended upon, for how many years have they believed that the earth was the centre of the universe, and they had all proof for it

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
See ya *waves*

heyyyyy thats my thing! *evil stare*

hugebigma wrote:
i have to leave now as well. i will return to this post when i get back home

bye! *waves* ;]

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:
i have something for you all to think about. . . if god existed none of us would know about him, cuz we cant see him, so if someone found out about him, HOW did they find out about him?eh? eh? . . .theres a thinker ;]

I live and exist in reality, if god only exists outside of reality, then why care? Its about magic he can do?

I think The Bible says that God has spoken to individuals, both directly, and through angels.

chunkymove wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:
i have something for you all to think about. . . if god existed none of us would know about him, cuz we cant see him, so if someone found out about him, HOW did they find out about him?eh? eh? . . .theres a thinker ;]

I live and exist in reality, if god only exists outside of reality, then why care? Its about magic he can do?

yeah but if he doesnt exist then. . .he doesnt do magic. . . we havnt known of any magic from him exept the possibility that he created the earth

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
I think The Bible says that God has spoken to individuals, both directly, and through angels.

yeah but the bible may have just been a kids story book a loooonnnngggggggggg time ago that people have rewritin and added their own bits, hence, matthew mark luke and john

elementr wrote:
I don’t think there is a god, but there is a need for the presence of god. Society needs something higher than themselves, so things can make more sense ironically. It doesn’t really matter what the details are for ex. if he is a she or the nature of it… On the other hand, one person’s idea of what god is and his purpose differs greatly from another persons and therefore can’t really be argued about, because god isn’t really defined. I don’t believe in what the bible refers to as god, but i believe (or make myself believe) that there is someone out there that eventually gives people justice whether in this life or the next (which is a whole other discussion)

i completely agree.

why am i humoring myself with tinfoil. . .

Moth wrote:

chunkymove wrote:
if real, then can be tested and is naturalis not real, then why care?I don’t see how god seems to slip past even this ever so simple idea

can be tested? if i ask you prove to me that you feel happy? what will you do? not everything in life measurable facts, and even those are not depended upon, for how many years have they believed that the earth was the centre of the universe, and they had all proof for it

I could though. I could define happy as a smile on my face, and then show you a smile on my face. OR you could test for certain chemicals in the blood stream. HAppiness has real an measureable parts to it. Not saying thats all it is, but it does have measureable interactions with the real world. and if your good if like the untestable part of happiness, then he can’t go round altering people live by “guiding the doctors hand”

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

elementr wrote:
I don’t think there is a god, but there is a need for the presence of god. Society needs something higher than themselves, so things can make more sense ironically. It doesn’t really matter what the details are for ex. if he is a she or the nature of it… On the other hand, one person’s idea of what god is and his purpose differs greatly from another persons and therefore can’t really be argued about, because god isn’t really defined. I don’t believe in what the bible refers to as god, but i believe (or make myself believe) that there is someone out there that eventually gives people justice whether in this life or the next (which is a whole other discussion)

i completely agree.

i believe that the law of causality in life( everything must have a cause) necessitates the idea that there must a creator of this universe.

Moth wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

elementr wrote:
I don’t think there is a god, but there is a need for the presence of god. Society needs something higher than themselves, so things can make more sense ironically. It doesn’t really matter what the details are for ex. if he is a she or the nature of it… On the other hand, one person’s idea of what god is and his purpose differs greatly from another persons and therefore can’t really be argued about, because god isn’t really defined. I don’t believe in what the bible refers to as god, but i believe (or make myself believe) that there is someone out there that eventually gives people justice whether in this life or the next (which is a whole other discussion)

i completely agree.

i believe that the law of causality in life( everything must have a cause) necessitates the idea that there must a creator of this universe.

the big bang

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

Moth wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

elementr wrote:
I don’t think there is a god, but there is a need for the presence of god. Society needs something higher than themselves, so things can make more sense ironically. It doesn’t really matter what the details are for ex. if he is a she or the nature of it… On the other hand, one person’s idea of what god is and his purpose differs greatly from another persons and therefore can’t really be argued about, because god isn’t really defined. I don’t believe in what the bible refers to as god, but i believe (or make myself believe) that there is someone out there that eventually gives people justice whether in this life or the next (which is a whole other discussion)

i completely agree.

i believe that the law of causality in life( everything must have a cause) necessitates the idea that there must a creator of this universe.

the big bang

the big bang is a process, not a conscious being, if it has a concious or a will, then it is God, but the fact that it is a tool to make the universe does not make it God, someone who has a will to make the universe as complicated as it is… its like a shakespeare, a pen and a novel

The Big Bang is said to be the creation of the universe in science.
The actual EVENT that took place.

Maybe God is just a child that was playing with the primordeal atom and dropped it… and it made a very loud and large BANG!

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

chunkymove wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:
i have something for you all to think about. . . if god existed none of us would know about him, cuz we cant see him, so if someone found out about him, HOW did they find out about him?eh? eh? . . .theres a thinker ;]

I live and exist in reality, if god only exists outside of reality, then why care? Its about magic he can do?

yeah but if he doesnt exist then. . .he doesnt do magic. . . we havnt known of any magic from him exept the possibility that he created the earth

Thats defintiion of creator god. If you say “god is the thing the made the earth” and the earth is made, then sure god exists, you just made him up. I might call the force by another, more acurate and useful name, but I can’t say that every persons ever changing definition is not god. I just say that I don’t believe in the supernatural, or even the unatural. That my definition almost of what I believe in.

chunkymove wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

chunkymove wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:
i have something for you all to think about. . . if god existed none of us would know about him, cuz we cant see him, so if someone found out about him, HOW did they find out about him?eh? eh? . . .theres a thinker ;]

I live and exist in reality, if god only exists outside of reality, then why care? Its about magic he can do?

yeah but if he doesnt exist then. . .he doesnt do magic. . . we havnt known of any magic from him exept the possibility that he created the earth

Thats defintiion of creator god. If you say “god is the thing the made the earth” and the earth is made, then sure god exists, you just made him up. I might call the force by another, more acurate and useful name, but I can’t say that every persons ever changing definition is not god. I just say that I don’t believe in the supernatural, or even the unatural. That my definition almost of what I believe in.

i am sorry i dont quite understand your point, can you clarify it a little bit :)

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:
why am i humoring myself with tinfoil. . .

Because God told you to?

Moth wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

elementr wrote:
I don’t think there is a god, but there is a need for the presence of god. Society needs something higher than themselves, so things can make more sense ironically. It doesn’t really matter what the details are for ex. if he is a she or the nature of it… On the other hand, one person’s idea of what god is and his purpose differs greatly from another persons and therefore can’t really be argued about, because god isn’t really defined. I don’t believe in what the bible refers to as god, but i believe (or make myself believe) that there is someone out there that eventually gives people justice whether in this life or the next (which is a whole other discussion)

i completely agree.

i believe that the law of causality in life( everything must have a cause) necessitates the idea that there must a creator of this universe.

ok, then god is big band and now has no other influence on our lives other than the testable reality we all live in. Go nothing to do with any bible.

I think Chunky is talking about the difference between God making the Earth directly, and creating the universe, which scientically appears to have formed itself through the physical laws of the universe!

Would I be right in saying that Chunky?

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

Moth wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

elementr wrote:
I don’t think there is a god, but there is a need for the presence of god. Society needs something higher than themselves, so things can make more sense ironically. It doesn’t really matter what the details are for ex. if he is a she or the nature of it… On the other hand, one person’s idea of what god is and his purpose differs greatly from another persons and therefore can’t really be argued about, because god isn’t really defined. I don’t believe in what the bible refers to as god, but i believe (or make myself believe) that there is someone out there that eventually gives people justice whether in this life or the next (which is a whole other discussion)

i completely agree.

i believe that the law of causality in life( everything must have a cause) necessitates the idea that there must a creator of this universe.

the big bang

sorry that was the earth. . .it was an ATOM, y’know those tiny things that are microscopic that are in everything

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
The Big Bang is said to be the creation of the universe in science.The actual EVENT that took place.Maybe God is just a child that was playing with the primordeal atom and dropped it… and it made a very loud and large BANG!

yeah, meteorites and commets banged into eachother to make the B.B

elementr wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

Moth wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

elementr wrote:
I don’t think there is a god, but there is a need for the presence of god. Society needs something higher than themselves, so things can make more sense ironically. It doesn’t really matter what the details are for ex. if he is a she or the nature of it… On the other hand, one person’s idea of what god is and his purpose differs greatly from another persons and therefore can’t really be argued about, because god isn’t really defined. I don’t believe in what the bible refers to as god, but i believe (or make myself believe) that there is someone out there that eventually gives people justice whether in this life or the next (which is a whole other discussion)

i completely agree.

i believe that the law of causality in life( everything must have a cause) necessitates the idea that there must a creator of this universe.

the big bang

I don’t think everything MUST have a cause, but it is inevitable that it does. Nothing or no one can go through life without effecting something or someone else. Its impossible. So in that sense everything DOES have a cause, but that isn’t vcontrolled by a higher neing, its caused by the fact that like i said, its impossible to go through life without affecting something or someone lese.

i have to diagree with that :) because you (as a person ) affect someone and someone affects someoone else, and you is the result of your parents and their parents and so forth, so there has to be a primary human being who is the father of all,, and so on

Michael Leibman wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:
why am i humoring myself with tinfoil. . .

Because God told you to?

hehe :P

Moth wrote:
there has to be a primary human being who is the father of all,, and so on

Evolution would disagree with you there.

Moth wrote:
i am sorry i dont quite understand your point, can you clarify it a little bit :)

thanks for asking. let me know if my tone is ever disrespectful, as that is neve my intention.

I was getting at that I see reality and go ok. You see a need for a magical creation process. I don’t see how magic can exist. If its in our universe its natural. Not any proofs, jsut semantics.

i think again that the “atom” is just a tool, the fact that it is the tool that made the universe does not make it the creator, a creator involves that he has a will to do something. and this creator we happen to call him god, just like a writer called john for example

Moth wrote:

elementr wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

Moth wrote:

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:

elementr wrote:
I don’t think there is a god, but there is a need for the presence of god. Society needs something higher than themselves, so things can make more sense ironically. It doesn’t really matter what the details are for ex. if he is a she or the nature of it… On the other hand, one person’s idea of what god is and his purpose differs greatly from another persons and therefore can’t really be argued about, because god isn’t really defined. I don’t believe in what the bible refers to as god, but i believe (or make myself believe) that there is someone out there that eventually gives people justice whether in this life or the next (which is a whole other discussion)

i completely agree.

i believe that the law of causality in life( everything must have a cause) necessitates the idea that there must a creator of this universe.

the big bang

I don’t think everything MUST have a cause, but it is inevitable that it does. Nothing or no one can go through life without effecting something or someone else. Its impossible. So in that sense everything DOES have a cause, but that isn’t vcontrolled by a higher neing, its caused by the fact that like i said, its impossible to go through life without affecting something or someone lese.

i have to diagree with that :) because you (as a person ) affect someone and someone affects someoone else, and you is the result of your parents and their parents and so forth, so there has to be a primary human being who is the father of all,, and so on

people, chimps, dinosoars, fish, cells ;] evolution!

Dougie the Pisces wrote:

Moth wrote:
there has to be a primary human being who is the father of all,, and so on

Evolution would disagree with you there.

do you BELIEVE evolution?

Moth wrote:
i think again that the “atom” is just a tool, the fact that it is the tool that made the universe does not make it the creator, a creator involves that he has a will to do something. and this creator we happen to call him god, just like a writer called john for example

nothing can be without an atom ;]

Moth wrote:

Dougie the Pisces wrote:

Moth wrote:
there has to be a primary human being who is the father of all,, and so on

Evolution would disagree with you there.

do you BELIEVE evolution?

ehem, we wouldnt be here without evolution ;]

can you prove evolution?i think that till now its just a theory :) there is no scientific measurable proof of evolution is there?

Moth wrote:
can you prove evolution?i think that till now its just a theory :) there is no scientific measurable proof of evolution is there?

fossils ;]

Honestly, I cannot prove the existence of anything before my first memory!

Dougie the Pisces wrote:
Honestly, I cannot prove the existence of anything before my first memory!

didnt you go to school :P

I did indeed!

ok then! *carries on living life*

like.me.or.hate.me wrote:
ok then! *carries on living life*

Good. :D

Moth wrote:
i think again that the “atom” is just a tool, the fact that it is the tool that made the universe does not make it the creator, a creator involves that he has a will to do something. and this creator we happen to call him god, just like a writer called john for example

bible says god made from clay, as that was teh level of understanding of making stuff two thousand years ago. Not they understand a bit more and it atoms are the tools. IF you ca see that you have already deviated from the holy book, why cling to the idea of god at all. The god you are describing doesn’t come from the bible, you’ve just made him up, and hes unessesary. Why need a magical step?

I believe in God, because why wouldnt there be?

Beacause it dosent make sense?

neither do the fact that bees fly, according to every known law of aviation there is no way that that bees should be able to dly because there bodies are too fat and their wings are too small.

I say, beleive what you feel is right, and when you die we’ll figure out who was correct, till then, just live your life my friends.