religion help: Is Islam really a perfect religion? - Help.com

What defines a perfect religion? What exactly IS a perfect religion?

Because I think every religion has the potential to be ‘perfect’ (whatever that means). The only problem is that almost every religion has a bunch of radical nut-heads who thinks every other religion needs to go.

Now buddhism might be a perfect religion….

i believe when it comes to religions, u need ur heart, i believe that just using minds leads u to no where, when it comes to relegions nearlly nothing can be proven.
i think historical data can’t be proven

to know whether a religion is perfect u have first to put a definition of “perfect” in this context and also the definition of “imperfect”.

perfection is in the eye of the beholder - there /is/ no perfect religion - go and ask a christian if islam is perfect! ;)

faith by its very nature is blind, and how can perfection exist in something you can’t see? - or see in a unique way, since the way you see something, will be different from someone else

wow… i could comment on a hundered different aspects, and spend the day typing, but to your point, what is perfect for one, will be flawed for another - so, no - islam is not the perfect religion, nor is buddhism :P

A religion can be perfect for a individial (but, even then, how many people follow a religion 100% - how many mis-interpritations exist?) - but a relgion cannot be perfect

To have a perfect religion, you need the perfect components. Everyone is guilty of sin, therefore it is hopeless and impossible for any religion to be perfect.

about the hatered, i don’t know whether there is a religion that tells its followers to hate others, but i know ppl that hate those who r different than them, so may be it is not the fault of the religion but rather the fault of the followers

i agree that faith to be absolute it should be blind, i mean u r absolutly sure even u can’t explain, it does not happen with minds to get explained

if you want to unedrstand which relegion is perfect you should study about the sporit of relegion and its rule and relegion. islam is the last relegion that sent by God to people whole of the world.but in studying about relegion you should just consider the rules not follower cause there are lot of followers who do not obey actually what thier relegion tells them. so try to search about the rules and the idea about the world how it creat and why it is created and what is the aim of creating the human , what is the different beween human and animals .
what is the best way for haveing the best and most happiest life
all this question should be answerd
you should not ask a priest or musilm is islam perfect it is sth that you should understand your self

i dont believe in god but i believe in kindness and compassion

i believe that religion is not the only factor affecting human behavior, i mean some muslims - i consider myself one of them - don’t hate others and have no problems with differences. islam didn’t order its followers to hate anyone, but sure closed-minded muslims get difficulty accepting others with different believes. so it has much to do with the personality, level of education, and other factors

i believe that this is the will of God to have differences, and the decision of God to forgive, i hope that God forgives us all.

i believe also that there is no 100% freedom, no 100% choice, so if i am a muslim, i can’t say i chose it not that i was born as a muslim, even those who converted to islam, it is the will of God who guided them. we don’t have full control over even our own thinking or how do we feel. we have some control but it is limited…

sometimes u feel good towards an idea, the after a while u reject it after getting some different experience or seeing it from a different angle, it is very difficult, very that’s why i can’t feel bad towards those with different relegions or no religions at all

once i read something i liked, it says “accept to get accepted”.

about my experience as a muslim, i have to differentiate bet. islam and muslims. i believe a lot of bad qualities u find in muslims but we can not conclude that it comes from islam. may be the bad circumstances.

for me when i get far from relegion it causes me frustration and depression may be, when i am close i feel much better, much much better, i find a great relief in the idea that God is there, u may tell me islam is not the only relegion that believes in God, and i say yes. but it is not an easy thing to do to study all relegions to take a decision, i don’t have the courage to do so… but i believe that God will not torture ppl who tries to be good, only God decides not me, i just pray for God to help us all.

about 100% belief, not easy!, not to reach with minds, i believe it is a gift something u r given or not…if we try enough God may give us this faith, but just staff can’t be explained, just happens.

u said u were an ex-muslim, so u were born as a muslim, or converted to islam then changed ur mind, and why u changed ur mind?

Just a word of advice, in order to find an answer to your posed question, its essential that you differentiate between religion and its followers (ie Islam from Muslims, Christianity from Christians, Judaism from Jews, Hinduism from Hindus, Buddhism from Buddhists, etc.) Because the practice of the followers may be flawed and many a times it is. (since practice is often merged with cultural traditions and hence imperfect)

Furthermore, I think to ask whether a religion is perfect, seems to me to be an incorrect approach. It may be better to ask simply, which of the religions that exist currently is most valid; allowing you to compare religions and decide as to which seems most correct according to you.

Beyond this, you also have to take into account that there exist several interpretations of the same religion. (on several occasions these interpretations differ very significantly - as you will see in Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism - and so pretty much all of the main stream religions)

Finally, to touch back on Islam in particular, you claim that Islam, inter alia/ among other religions, promotes alienation of other religions. Again, is this alienation an aspect of Islam or something that was wrongly practiced by the followers of Islam.

Islam is just as violent and flawed as the other Abrahamic religions, all of whose holy books preach to spread the word to non-believers or ‘infidels’ and denounce other religions.

Islam does not urge its folowers to hate others . it is wrong

I never said hate, I said denounce, its slightly different, or the same, depending on how you look at it. Either way, Islam, like many other religions, hates other religions. I realise that not all do, in the same way that not all christians do, but the holy book explicitly gives rules to deal with non-believers just like christianity or judaism does. They all have the same root, they all have the same result. Also, as they all have the same result, what makes one of the abrahamic religions more worthy than the other? nothing

Arnday the Imbroglio wrote:
I never said hate, I said denounce, its slightly different, or the same, depending on how you look at it. Either way, Islam, like many other religions, hates other religions. I realise that not all do, in the same way that not all christians do, but the holy book explicitly gives rules to deal with non-believers just like christianity or judaism does. They all have the same root, they all have the same result. Also, as they all have the same result, what makes one of the abrahamic religions more worthy than the other? nothing

Unless you’ve extensively read materials on all of these religions, I don’t think that you can claim the above. Just to point out, Islam does not propagate hatred nor does it “hate other religions” (which does not make sense in any case because you are attributing human characteristics to a religion … a religion cannot hate, its followers can). A very clear part of the Islamic philosophy is the concept that “to you is your religion, to me is mine” (Although this may not be followed by some Muslims now a days). Islam does not prescribe limits or rules to those who do not follow Islam, it is those who follow Islam incorrectly who are adamant on prescribing Islamic laws on non-Muslims. These “explicit rules” that you refer to, are they really part of the religion or aspects that have been incorrectly forced into the religion by its followers?

Furthermore, just for your information, during the time of the Prophet Muhammad, Islamic laws were only applicable to self-professed Muslims (those known to the public as being practicing Muslims) not to “non-believers/non-Muslims”. There were present in those times and in Arabia, Christians, Jews, Hindus as well as Atheists. Christians were governed solely by rules thought to be encompassed in the Christian religion, similarly Jewish law applied to Jews. As for followers of non-Abrahamic religions, a separate set of secular laws applied to them.

Moreover, the idea of denouncing other religions that you claim as being present in all Abrahamic religions is flawed as well. There is nothing in Islam that suggests that followers of Islam should denounce other religions, even though there may be some followers of Islam who still do so. However, I would like to point out that when someone professes to becoming part of a particular religion although they may not be denouncing or accusing other religions of being incorrect, there is still an implied sense of denouncement. This implied denouncement will always exist because if two religions approach the same topic in very different and conflicting manners then it is evident that the follower of one of those religions prefers that religion to the other (which he/she will probably observe as being wrong). For example, if someone claims to be an Atheist then they are impliedly denouncing all religions that preach the existence of a Higher Entity solely because of the conflicting nature of the views. I’m quite sure that you will agree that such an implication is not one that leads to hatred, but rather it is when people publicly criticise or denounce another religion that creates hatred. Islam does not allow this sort of propagation of hatred between religions and I am quite sure that Christianity and Judaism do not allow it either.

berboor wrote:
Please per in mind that we are talking about Islam itself not the practices of Muslims. And for those who don’t know this, we hear every Friday Prayer the quoted praying of the prophet Mohammed in which really unpleasant things are said about none Muslims. This is just a small example. There are many other indicators in Quran that show the urging for hatred to none Muslim people.

Please bear in mind:
1) Islam was spread through not only the Quran but also through the practices of the Prophet (ie the practice of the greatest Muslim), so it is somewhat artificial to speak of Islam separate from practice.
2) When you hear unpleasant things being said during Friday Prayers how can you be sure that these are authentic quotes from the Prophet rather than comments that have incorrectly been attributed to the Prophet.
3) Could you please give me quotes from the Quran that urge hatred (maybe the quotes that you have heard/read were taken out of context … it is easy to misconstrue almost any sentence to one’s own advantage)
4) On the point of sources (especially in Islam) and as to which are correct and which are not, there is a big debate between different divisions of Muslims (mainly between the Sunni followers and the Shiite followers). I would advise you to analyse both sets of sources, if you haven’t already done so, in order to understand what is actually an authentic reference by the Prophet before commenting on a quote claimed to be from the Prophet.

PS Shiites generally do not regard many of the Sunni sources as being accurate … assuming that you’ve only been exposed to Sunni sources(sorry if my assumption is inaccurate)… it may be worth having a look at Shiite sources as well before condemning Islam. I can recommend some books if you wish!

berboor wrote:
Regarding the Shiite (Shia) sources, I don’t think getting to them is ganna help that much. Not to be rude or anything, but they get credits for harming Sunnis!?!?

There are a lot of inaccurate rumors that circulate within Sunni circles about Shias and vice versa, there are a lot of inaccurate rumors that circulate within Shia circles about Sunnis. So, I think, it’s important to ignore the gossip/opinions and instead focus more so on the actual sources of information. In my opinion, a comparison of sources is in fact necessary. The reason is because generally Shias and Sunnis have, many a times, very different interpretations of these sources. For example, many Quranic verses are given a very different (sometimes metaphorical) meaning according to Shia sources when compared to Sunni sources.

The majority of Shia interpretations relate to the 12 Imams (including the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet) that are highly revered by Shias. Whereas, Sunni interpretations derive mainly from the Prophet and the 4 Caliphs (the first two Caliphs having a greater influence, in my humble opinion, than the latter two). Although it may not seem like a great difference, I assure you that upon comparing both you will see a very sharp contrast between the two.

Concerning the Quranic verses that you refer to, I believe that the Christians, Jews, and non Muslims that are referred to are of a particular place and time (rather than generally all Jews, Christians and non Muslims).

I’m not trying to solicit/promote one sect of Islam over another, I’m merely trying to tempt you to consider both (and since you have already been exposed to Sunni pratices, it may be beneficial to just consider the Shia perspective as well).

PS Just as a quick last thought, I’m not sure if you’ve noticed/read this, but in some of the 6 Sahih books, including Sahih Al Bukhari as well (so i’ve been told), (which by the way are Sunni sources of Hadith not Shia sources) there are two interesting narrations:
1) It is narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said that after him there will be only twelve succeeders/leaders/caliphs (in arabic, Imams) who will be appointed to serve the people of their time.
2) It is also narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) mentioned that whoever does not know the name of the Imam of their time, “has lived an ignorant life.”

PPS Sorry for incorrectly stating that you were condemning Islam, that was a mistake on my part!

i am shia and i kiss the hand of all sunni. they are muslim as me and i love all of them.

sadafrazi8 wrote:
i am shia and i kiss the hand of all sunni. they are muslim as me and i love all of them.

I very much agree with your affection towards all Muslims, whether they be “Sunni”, “Shia” or from the many other sects of Muslims.

As Imam Ali (as) says:
“There are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you. Men of either category suffer from the same weaknesses and disabilities that human beings are inclined to, they commit sins, indulge in vices either intentionally or foolishly and unintentionally without realizing the enormity of their deeds. Let your mercy and compassion come to their rescue and help in the same way and to the same extent that you expect Allah to show mercy and forgiveness to you.”

My point is simply that in order to better understand Islam it is important to compare and contrast or at least explore all perspectives that relate to Islam. (Especially the two main perspectives, those of Sunni followers and of Shia followers, as most other branches of Islam stem from either Sunni or Shia beliefs.)

I didn’t intend to offend anyone and I respect all beliefs. Sorry, if any offence was caused.

Okay, steering back on track! =D

Concerning Utopia:

Here’s (the link to) a letter that Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) sent to Malik al Ashtar (who had been appointed as governor of Egypt) explaining the principles of administration and justice as dictated by Islam. It is quite relevant to the idea of Utopia that you are researching. Maybe, if that which is laid out in this letter is followed, there may be a possibility of Utopia (given the right circumstances and the right people).

I think you will find it interesting. In fact, a lot scholars (Muslim and non Muslim alike) have researched this letter to better understand governance.

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/letter…

Hope the link is helpful!

berboor wrote:
I mean by “perfect”:
The guide to achieve Utopia which is a world where there is no wars and killing and a world where there is morals and respect for everyone equally.

No religion can do these things. This is why:

No religions can be proven. You must have faith.
Since there is no proof, there will always be some people that do not believe. People who do not believe in a religion will not have the same morals as people who do believe in the religion. The morals will not be equal.

Because the morals will no be equal, some people will do things that other people feel is disrespectful or unrespectable. We give others respect because of how they behave. The Christian Bible permits slavery. The Q’uran teaches subserviance of women. Like many other Agnostics, I cannot give equal respect to people who own slaves or treat women poorly. I think that pre-marital se x is important. I will not marry a person unless I know that we have a healthy, pleasurable physical relationship. However, there are many religious beliefs that consider my behavior unrespectable and think that I am bad for society because of it. The respect will not be equal.

There are many religions (Islam included) where it is acceptable to kill people who’s sin is so bad that their life makes society a worse place. There are many religions where it is okay to fight for you beliefs. There will always be people like me who are willing to fight to be free of other people’s beliefs. Religion does not prevent fighting; it provokes conflict among different people.

If you are looking for a Utopia, religion is the incorrect path to get there.

berboor wrote:
What if we came up with a religion or should I say a system or whatever you’d like to call it that can maintain morals and give people their freedom at the same time. Wouldn’t that be wonderful. . .

Wouldn’t it be better if we stopped coming up with new religions - instead let the ones we have evolve & hope the moderate parts of them “win”

Fascinating discussion by the way, I’m really enjoying it *Smiles*

God is a bit of a sketchy subject, I don’t know; but the force of creation that lies beyond any personification of a “god” - most of the time had the feeling/thought it’s just a manmade belief that makes it easier to focus; simplification of a possible truth. God is an illusion, religion is just a guide for morals.

The whole heaven, angels, hellfire, apocolypse it’s just a PR stunt. I’ll probably change my mind on that again but I’m only human :)

Focussing on any single one religion (I tend to skip the “don’t believe in other gods, I’m the only one” line, because isn’t that a bit arrogant?) if these Gods are allmight, omnipitent, etc; why the need for what appears to me like a legal disclaimer? Aren’t they supposd to know compassion, not give us more then we can bear?

Holy books are inspiring, but religion is a personal experience; and what if we don’t want/need Utopia?

actually, it could be said you are wrong on all those fronts (playing devils advocate here)

we don’t need killing

after each war the surviors are stronger, more intelligent, it advances technology which helps living

don’t believe in other gods, I’m the only one

why can’t you? the Celts did, so did the Romans, So did the Egyptions and many many other cultures have over the centurys

Admittedly on that last one you say “and not be a muslim” but that gets back into your focus of /JUST/ Islam, which i’m not touching on (various reasons why not :P)

and, lastly

I don’t think anyone can argue whether we need Utopia

care to define utopia? - one mans paradise is another mans hell

hehe - wonderful comeback :D - although i would slap your wrists in saying its pathetic - its actually wonderful if people do that - its pathetic when they mope, and don’t make the best of what they actually have

But - care to define “wrong” though - as, working on sunday was once wrong, and you could be killed for it, many years ago!

and i LOVE you comeback on the technology - its entirely true :) - i would only make the small coda that technology does advance faster during war than peace, but thats simply because of the rule “necessity is the mother of invention” - its unlikely you will design a large armoured vehicle, and the mechanical engineering advances to make it work in peace, because no-one ever needs it!

peace time inventions take a different edge :)

and also - what is /your/ definition on utopia - can such a place exisit for everyone given humanitys fundimental differences?

i never said it was a good reason! - i merely stated the facts :)

and common sense isn’t so common - there must be a defintion of right and wrong - since everyones definition is different - after all, why do people kill themselves and others for the name of a religion? - as far as /they/ see - they are right

Lets see - oft used, and completely idiotic statements include
“killing an heathen is not murder, it is the path to god/heaven” (Christianity)
“die in the service of Allah, and be rewarded in heaven” (Islam)
And i could probably look up similar statements for most large religions over the ages

does that mean they are right, good, tall and proud, and me, because i think they are being morons, are a foul heathen idiot that should just be shot or otherwise killed on general principles/being a unbeliever? - as far as /their/ common sense dictates, i should be :)

Common sense is purely subjective - you have to do better than that :)

if you want more proof of that, check out Hitler - he managed to convince an entire nation that he was right, and that it was common sense to go to war!

As to your definition of Utopia - It means we all must get along with others… yes? - but, to eliminate all the bad, could we ever appreciate the good?

hehe - ’tis a cop out - answer the above!

but, since you asked

Good - is a subjetive point of view, normally attributed to being benefical
Eg: I have been good, because i have given my brother all my money this week
Eg: I have been good, because i have killed hitler, thus sparing the world a war
Eg: I have been good, because i obey all tenents of my religion, including the ones that say i should kill non-believers

idiotic - to be an idiot/stupid
(do you /really/ want a definition? oO)

morons - similar to idiotic

subjective - depends on the subject matter - it means it can vary from person to person

Eg:

A Random Brit - Killing Hitler is a good thing because it will dishearten the Germans, and end the war

A Random German - Killing Hitler is a bad thing, because he is our further, our leader, and we love him

- you should be asking better questions than that you know ;)

- so - are you now going to come up with a better definition of right and wrong / good and bad now? :P

(sory about the WW2 references - its just big enough and well known enough to demonstrate - i can use more up to date examples if you would rather :D

berboor wrote:
What if we came up with a religion or should I say a system or whatever you’d like to call it that can maintain morals and give people their freedom at the same time. Wouldn’t that be wonderful. . .

I’ve been thinking about this and I propose that there’s just one golden rule that must be followed to accomplish a perfect state or Utopia.

Golden Rule: Everyone must always tell the truth. (ie if everyone was limited to solely telling the truth and had no capacity to lie, then it seems unlikely that there would be wars, killings, immorality, etc)

Think about it! Everyone would always be accountable to others and since they would not be able to lie, there deeds (whether good or bad) would ultimately always surface. Therefore, they would avoid committing wrongs (especially against others).

If noone would be able to tell lies, then what about the troubled people; I’ve done the whole truth and nothing but the truth thing and it backfires (could just be my experience though) People aren’t ready to hear the bad toughts of others.

To throw a little Scientology into this (quoted from Wikipedia):

“Hubbard believed that approximately 80 percent of all people are what he called social personalities – people who welcome and contribute to the welfare of others. The remaining 20 percent of the population, Hubbard thought, were suppressive persons. According to Hubbard, only about 2.5 percent of this 20 percent are hopelessly antisocial personalities; these make up the small proportion of truly dangerous individuals in humanity: “the Adolf Hitlers and the Genghis Khans, the unrepentant murderers and the drug lords.”

The question when looking for Utopia or a perfected society always remains: how far are you willing to go? For me the idea that anything can be perfect feels/seems like one big illusion, something that just isn’t real.

Sigurrós wrote:
If noone would be able to tell lies, then what about the troubled people; I’ve done the whole truth and nothing but the truth thing and it backfires (could just be my experience though) People aren’t ready to hear the bad toughts of others.

The question when looking for Utopia or a perfected society always remains: how far are you willing to go? For me the idea that anything can be perfect feels/seems like one big illusion, something that just isn’t real.

I agree with the second part of your post. It does seem like one big illusion.

As for the truth theory, I think the reason your effort backfired is because we don’t live in a society where everyone is limited to telling the truth and only the truth (where only 2 options exist 1 - tell the truth or 2 - remain silent). I think if such an arrangement within society existed then maybe (just maybe) there could be a society that we’re looking for, but as you mentioned, it does seem unrealistic. (Certainly does seems unlikely in the short period of time that we will be on this planet.)

Sigurrós wrote:
People aren’t ready to hear the bad toughts of others.

Oh and just a thought, there are several ways of conveying the truth; some of which are more effective than others. I think its trying to find a balance between giving too much information away and giving too little (+ tone, exact wording et al) that is required.

Never lying isn’t the answer to all problems, it’s the differences that makes some willing to kill without hesitation ( without lying about it ).
Utopia isn’t impossible to reach if only people learn acceptance, that may only happen after generations.

Wonderful discussion (^_^) Keep up the good work.

I think that it depends on how religion is interpreted. Radical extremes exist in all religions and this can give the whole faith a bad name. Whether it’s suicide bombers, the KKK, the crusades, the IRA or persecution, religion has been used as an excuse to do terrible things. That does not mean that the religion as a whole is bad or wrong.

Very true. Sad but true. Evil can lurk in religion just as it can in society.

who cares

Everyone who’s ever suffered as a result of religion or religion directed hatred. All the victims of the KKK. The victims of the crusades. Persecuted priests in soviet Russia. The victims of the holocaust. Need I say more?

Might be interesting to think about how China deals with religion, as they try to regulate it. Sadly, so far I’m not seeing a good outcome.

islam is perfect religion all others r fake they will know at the time of judgement