It’s a good question. But if doing good results in good for both the giver and receiver, that’s well.. good. You don’t have to be a martyr to do what’s right.
In my opinion unselfish giving is giving without the expectation of an external reward. That internal self satisfaction that you receive after you have helped your community is a gift.
Even in your scenario of giving until it hurts, later on when you looked back on it you most likely would feel self gratified. You’d look back at it and proudly say “i gave until i was suffering” and that would probably have intrinsic value to you as well. And even if you did manage to give so much that you hated it and never wanted to do it again, you’d most likely not want to do it again. This would be the selfish act, destroying the gift you already have, taking away your ability to help others and that in itself be enough for you.
Forget the paradox, if there even is one, and keep doing what your doing.
Sans wrote:
It’s a good question. But if doing good results in good for both the giver and receiver, that’s well.. good. You don’t have to be a martyr to do what’s right.
so kinda like.. everyone wins? that sounds like a business deal. lol. i guess i wan’t aiming for martyrdom really. but hmmmm. i guess the giver “getting” something isn’t really a sin.
siralberteinstein wrote:
And even if you did manage to give so much that you hated it and never wanted to do it again, you’d most likely not want to do it again. This would be the selfish act, destroying the gift you already have, taking away your ability to help others and that in itself be enough for you.
Forget the paradox, if there even is one, and keep doing what your doing.
that made sense, and a more sustainable/long-term way of viewing things. :)
Nope its not.
If one didn’t get pleasure from giving, one would not give.
And that cannot be a bad thing…its just the way things are.
It is if you want something to benefit yourself as well and ask for it. Sharing isn’t bad, it’s just that people usually have a not so funny way of either returning what they borrow not the way they got it or just don’t give it back at all.
Snar wrote:
Nope its not.
If one didn’t get pleasure from giving, one would not give.
And that cannot be a bad thing…its just the way things are.
so it’s kind of.. the end justifies the means? it’s ok to get pleasure from giving as long as you will continue to give. pleasure which may involve feeling good about yourself is one thing. how about pride? some people get a boost of arrogance from giving, is that ok if it becomes an incentive to give again? :)
i hope i’m not veering away from the topic too much. just started thinking about this.. you know those humanitarian awards? i don’t know what they’re called exactly. awards given to those who donated to charity heavily etc. like something that Bill Gates might get. do you think that can possibly corrupt a’giver’?
Neutra wrote:
It is if you want something to benefit yourself as well and ask for it. Sharing isn’t bad, it’s just that people usually have a not so funny way of either returning what they borrow not the way they got it or just don’t give it back at all.
agreed. this is when giving is already corrupted. i wouldn’t even call it giving even.
vivzofwale wrote:
Snar wrote:
Nope its not.
If one didn’t get pleasure from giving, one would not give.
And that cannot be a bad thing…its just the way things are.
so it’s kind of.. the end justifies the means? it’s ok to get pleasure from giving as long as you will continue to give. pleasure which may involve feeling good about yourself is one thing. how about pride? some people get a boost of arrogance from giving, is that ok if it becomes an incentive to give again? :)
i hope i’m not veering away from the topic too much. just started thinking about this.. you know those humanitarian awards? i don’t know what they’re called exactly. awards given to those who donated to charity heavily etc. like something that Bill Gates might get. do you think that can possibly corrupt a’giver’?
I’d throw my definition back at this scenario: unselfish giving is giving without the expectation of an external reward.
So if the giver gives without expectation of a medal or a reward or anything of that sort, it is still selfless. If others happen to notice and decide they want to reward his giving, the giver should humble accept. The giver could even give his reward! :)
siralberteinstein wrote:
I’d throw my definition back at this scenario: unselfish giving is giving without the expectation of an external reward.
So if the giver gives without expectation of a medal or a reward or anything of that sort, it is still selfless. If others happen to notice and decide they want to reward his giving, the giver should humble accept. The giver could even give his reward! :)
that’s PRE-award i guess. what if (just what if) the next time he is motivated to give to get the same prestigious award for next year? the intentions are different BUT he sees to it that he gives more and shows it to people who matter. just a scenario. although of course, the receiver wins here.
Well, I think the notion of being “selfish” is quite a ridiculous one. All actions are selfish because all actions are for the fulfillment on one’s self…regardless of who they help or fail to help.
As long as you actually give a **** about the person you are helping, then i respect you for being charitable, regardless of whatever endorphins it releases into your system and through what means.
vivzofwale wrote:
siralberteinstein wrote:
I’d throw my definition back at this scenario: unselfish giving is giving without the expectation of an external reward.
So if the giver gives without expectation of a medal or a reward or anything of that sort, it is still selfless. If others happen to notice and decide they want to reward his giving, the giver should humble accept. The giver could even give his reward! :)
that’s PRE-award i guess. what if (just what if) the next time he is motivated to give to get the same prestigious award for next year? the intentions are different BUT he sees to it that he gives more and shows it to people who matter. just a scenario. although of course, the receiver wins here.
Ha, yet another paradox perhaps? The giver now loves rewards and giving at the same time! Maybe this will force that scenario where giving will cause suffering. The giver will feel horrible dissonance because on the one hand he loves giving selflessly, but now his new love of medals directly conflicts with self view of himself as a selfless giver! :)
Snar wrote:
Well, I think the notion of being “selfish” is quite a ridiculous one. All actions are selfish because all actions are for the fulfillment on one’s self…regardless of who they help or fail to help.
As long as you actually give a **** about the person you are helping, then i respect you for being charitable, regardless of whatever endorphins it releases into your system and through what means.
i see, i guess that makes things simple. come to think of it, i have that similar view as well. i apply it to other people. but for some reason i can’t apply it to myself.
vivzofwale wrote:
Snar wrote:
Well, I think the notion of being “selfish” is quite a ridiculous one. All actions are selfish because all actions are for the fulfillment on one’s self…regardless of who they help or fail to help.
As long as you actually give a **** about the person you are helping, then i respect you for being charitable, regardless of whatever endorphins it releases into your system and through what means.
i see, i guess that makes things simple. come to think of it, i have that similar view as well. i apply it to other people. but for some reason i can’t apply it to myself.
I have the same problem, concepts that aren’t rational are the concepts that define us as interactive beings. If we could see all sides of the story and argument all the time then…well…we wouldn’t be us.
siralberteinstein wrote:
Ha, yet another paradox perhaps? The giver now loves rewards and giving at the same time! Maybe this will force that scenario where giving will cause suffering. The giver will feel horrible dissonance because on the one hand he loves giving selflessly, but now his new love of medals directly conflicts with self view of himself as a selfless giver! :)
UNLESS he is not aware of his new love for medals. i mean, maybe he is in denial or he just doesn’t realize it. :)
i was thinking about this because.. ok, this may be a bit long. our family started out with little money. but because my parents worked very hard (love them for that), we’re able to do well in life. we’re not RICH rich but for a third-world country, i consider us very lucky.
since i know what it’s like to be poor, i want to do something for those who need help. not that there’s much i can give, i mean, i just graduated and stuff. but i do what i can. nothing major though.
my recent life is really filled with praises from friends and from the community about how “generous” i am. it’s not that i made a press release of what i do, but i guess those people i helped told others and so on. and recently too, i realized how these praises make me feel good. then.. i dont know why, i started feeling sooooo guilty. what a terrible feeling, guilt.
Keep doing what your doing press never hurt anybody. I don’t know what you want to do with your life, but you could always make a career out of it. Use this momentum to start a non profit organization, one person doing some good deeds can help a neighborhood, but a whole organization can help a town, city, country etc.
That guilt is probably a little bit of the giver liking the medals scenario. Your feeling guilty because you went into this with no expectation of reward, you felt as if you owed it. You were paying back this untold debt by doing these good deeds. But now since you are getting praise for it you no longer feel like the debt is being paid. Just a guess :)
But seriously go with it. If you really like the volunteering, giving back, helping others, try to grow it. And try not to feel guilty, it is perfectly natural to feel good when others praise you for your good deeds. They are praising you because you did good deeds! They want to reinforce that behavior and see it spread, and it sounds like you might be the one to spread it!
I have always been a “giver”, I always was “helpful” or a “volunteer” before it was a “graduation requirement” in many high schools. I did it as a friend.
If I saw someone that needed help, I would help them. Someone more disabled than I am, I would have no problem grabbing a book for a class or a dropped pencil or even help with more “personal care” situations (such as holding a urinal for someone who can not).
I did it because it seemed the “right thing to do”, I DID NOT do it for a surprise certificate of recognition for my doing what I thought was the RIGHT THING TO DO.
This continued throughout my life (on 22-July-1968, I turned 41). I have done a lot of volunteer work, and I did it without seeking or most of the time getting accolades. So I will not even go into the “details” of all I have done in my life (I perhaps when I was working was doing as much to help others as I was doing to make an income, far beyond “full-time hours”.
But, let me try to also “flip” the situation… I had my first heart attack at age 20 in October of 1988. I went on Social Security Disability on 14-February-1989,
and my business partner “fired” me by paying off my personal medical and other debt
except for one or two personal credit cards (he knew I was “burning the candle at both ends” and that is why I had a heart attack at age 20… plus flying on a minimum of 14 flights a week, and working 7 days a week, perhaps caused a combination of stress, PAD, and DVT that lead to my finally having my heart attack on top of the disabilities I already had.
Now, why did I bring that up? Because for the first time, I started to be on the other side of the situation. I to this day appreciate when someone does something for me, it is a great blessing to me. I survive on US$707.00 a month, and after housing, utilities, and co-payments on my medications (I am on the Federal Medicare, State/Federal Medicaid, and Federal/Private Medicare Part D for my medical care, and I have co-payments on 15 medications that I take daily due to heart rate, angina, leg spasms, allergies, pain, arthritis, cholesterol, ulcer, acid reflux, low blood sugar seizures due to hypoglycemia, depression/PTSD, in various combinations. I am wheelchair bound or bed bound when it gets to be too hot and humid in the summer or too cold in the winter especially (my only good mobility is when the weather is rather mild). I do qualify for USDA Food Stamps, but they perhaps last 2 to 3 weeks a month (that is buying only what is on sale, as healthy as possible, clipping coupons, and belonging to the “frequent shopper discount card” programs at the grocery stores. I have no family to speak of. I have been on my own totally since my mother passed away at age 56 after a 9 year battle with stage 4 breast cancer in 1996 (before that from 1989 to 1992 I was on my own, was there for my mother for the worst of it at her diagnosis, when she became violent on some of the chemo where I had to leave for my safety, and at the end when she really needed help).
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I moved from California to Ohio in October of 1996 because my roommate who is also disabled, wanted to come back to take care of his mother. He could not afford to move, and I could not afford to stay. I prayed, “Lord, if you will show a way for my roommate to move back to Ohio, I will come along and help”. Within a month I was on my way, and 16 days later he was able to arrive after dealing with some mover problems. His mother was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s Disease, only after I DEMANDED that her doctor recommend a Gerontologist and a Neurologist to do a full evaluation on her. She was able to stay in her home until August 2001 when she became too violent. She will be 89 at the end of December of this year, and will be the longest living of her 6 siblings.
The males died usually of heart disease (no diagnosed Alzheimer’s there), one sister also had Alzheimer’s and I believe their mother did based on family accounts, her other sister was an alcoholic and “pickled her brain”, had no sign of Alzheimer’s but had heart disease and diabetes. But she the youngest child, has already lived longer in years than any of her siblings, and is the only member of her close family still alive. My roommate’s sister died this year of breast cancer that went to her brain, after an 18 month battle, a week to the day after her 59th birthday.
I have never been one to ask for help. I have always been a “Do unto other’s” person, but never wanted to be “repaid” in any way. I even left plastic “Laundry
Baskets” at people’s front doors with EVERYTHING needed to make a holiday meal near
the US Thanksgiving and Christmas… or when I felt lead to do so. I would just drop it off before dawn, and get out of there before anyone could “catch” me. I did that when I was working and could afford to. Now, after I stopped working, I have gone hungry at times, and it makes me more thankful.
I was also “stubborn”, I would not ask for help, and it was hard for someone to give it to me. But with a roommate, and later his mother, needing help as well… I was more humbled and accepted help when offered, and even more humbled when I have had to go and ask for help. In my current community, things have dried up as far as services (even food), due to the economy and nearly double the national rate of unemployment in this town (and we still have the GM plant closing in the spring of 2010). So it will only be worse. So I truly count my blessings.
What do I give today? I volunteer as a hospital, nursing home, and hospice chaplain, and as a pastoral counselor. Much of which I can do over the phone,
or I can get a ride if I need to do something in person, such as a visitation,
wedding, or funeral. But I have helped people from my bed, by Phone, Instant
Messaging, or E-Mail. It is not much, but it is what I can do. I can not afford to help as much as I used to, and I physically can not help as much as I used to, but I
do what I can.
God Bless,
John
–
John Benjamin Tatum
Mansfield, Ohio, United States of America
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Snar wrote:
I have the same problem, concepts that aren’t rational are the concepts that define us as interactive beings. If we could see all sides of the story and argument all the time then…well…we wouldn’t be us.
that’s really true. sometimes i forget that we creatures of emotions as well. lolz. maybe i should stop overthinking things sometimes.
siralberteinstein wrote:
Keep doing what your doing press never hurt anybody. I don’t know what you want to do with your life, but you could always make a career out of it. Use this momentum to start a non profit organization, one person doing some good deeds can help a neighborhood, but a whole organization can help a town, city, country etc.
That guilt is probably a little bit of the giver liking the medals scenario. Your feeling guilty because you went into this with no expectation of reward, you felt as if you owed it. You were paying back this untold debt by doing these good deeds. But now since you are getting praise for it you no longer feel like the debt is being paid. Just a guess :)
But seriously go with it. If you really like the volunteering, giving back, helping others, try to grow it. And try not to feel guilty, it is perfectly natural to feel good when others praise you for your good deeds. They are praising you because you did good deeds! They want to reinforce that behavior and see it spread, and it sounds like you might be the one to spread it!
that’s really encouraging. :) it really is, thanks. and a lot of people helping out is better than just me, that’s true. sheeeesh. especially in this economy. i can’t even find a job myself.
JBT-DM.
Wow, what a life story. how are you doing right now? health-wise i mean. a heart-attack at twenty..
your story is really inspiring. and i have to admit, i never had the opportunity to help someone in that complicated situation. makes me feel like i should do more to others.
hey, it’s great that you have asked for help though. :) even if you’re stubborn, as you say.
Hello Vivz,
I have always been a survivor, doing pretty good in general.
Take care,
John
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sharing isn’t really a selfless act if as you get it back. giving is definatly a selfless act unless it’s expecting something in return.
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I would say that if Giving and Helping people makes you feel good about your self, than their is nothing wrong with that. If it makes you feel good, as oppossed to bad, than it makes you more likely to be helpful to others in the future. I’m sure that everyone wants to be helped sometime.
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No
selfish is only when its something that makes you feel good and others bad.
its also not selfish to want things for yourself time to time.
It is selfless if you feel good about giving to others but yes it is even more selfless if you do something you do not want to do for the sake of others because you care about them.
It is selfish however if you want something that hurts others who may be good people.
lionhea wrote:
I would say that if Giving and Helping people makes you feel good about your self, than their is nothing wrong with that. If it makes you feel good, as oppossed to bad, than it makes you more likely to be helpful to others in the future. I’m sure that everyone wants to be helped sometime.
i quite agree. i guess the direction that i had in mind was more of about internal struggle than the impact i have on people. feeling good about myself after giving may be incentive for me to do it again. but i guess what i was questioning is how pure my intentions are as well. that if i get ’something’ out of giving then it isn’t as selfless as i thought giving is.:)
sum wrote:
No
selfish is only when its something that makes you feel good and others bad.
its also not selfish to want things for yourself time to time.
It is selfless if you feel good about giving to others but yes it is even more selfless if you do something you do not want to do for the sake of others because you care about them.
It is selfish however if you want something that hurts others who may be good people.
true as well. maybe i view things too much in an absolute way, you know? like if something is selfless then one party should be losing something and another is gaining. which is too simplistic, i guess..
I think its human nature to feel good about it or what your looking for is think of your most prized item and you give it away because someone needs it. You dont like the idea of giving it away there the selfless part but later on you feel good about it because you did the right thing.
Thats a very good pointt..! But i guess you feel good cause you have helpped someone else feel good (: so its basically a win-win situation.. and hopefully when you need help that person will be there for you and you will both get the same feelinggs [if you understand what i just put lol]
[;
X
Giving can be a selfless act. “Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” I guess it’s hard to say what that would be like until you’ve done it. But it has an application outside of death. Can anyone truly say that their life is lived for the sake of others? Without desire for a reward, here or even in the afterlife? I think only Jesus Christ could say something like that.
Some gifts you can’t be proud of. I gave an ex her freedom. It hurt both of us very deeply, and that didn’t make me feel good about myself. But I knew it was the best thing I could do for her. Still I can’t say that every moment of my life is spent in the service of others, or that I exist for no other purpose.
I believe it’s your intentions behind your acts that reflects the quality of what you are doing. You’re giving because it’s helping people. Sure you feel great about it when you’re done but it’s the intention of giving that counts….
It’s called Altruism. And cannot truely exist. But is the deed of giving good enough? Why must you not get any satisfaction in return? That is not selfish!
The recipient of the good deed is not benefited any more if you do not feel satisfaction. It does not subtract from your deed.
Sometimes we give and feel good about ourselves and sometimes we give and don’t even think about it. For instance, if any of you have children you don’t always feel, when you’ve done something for your child. Subconciously, we do it for our children b/c we Love them. So maybe Love is the gift but either way, all is good. Giving is one of the key’s to truly loving, rather you feel from it or not. So ultimately a giver is usually a kind person who wants go things for themselves and others. There all kinds of emotions mixed into giving and receiving. Ever heard of the phrase, “Actions speak louder then words”. Noone can truly answer this question, b/c the experience is different for all of us. You are probably remembering a specific time when you gave and felt good, but for me I have given and felt good, times when I was sacrificing, sometimes did it and didn’t even think about the sit. at all. Idk, everyone is different but i do know that if you give then more then likely you will receive eventually even if that’s not what you expected. By the way, interesting question. I’ve thought the same thing before.
The main reason you feel good about giving is because you are doing
what your soul does all the time.
And thus its from your devine self.
true is yourself wanting to do it , AND YU KNOW that doing it makes people happy . and i mean the people ur helping . not ppl around you . its normal to hav a good feeling after u done it .
I agree there would be no real reason to live if you couldn’t share happiness with anyone. That’s what it’s all about. Peace, Love and Happiness!
umm no i dont think itz a selfish act
i mean you help others and thats good.
if it makes you feel better when you help anyone its because you know that you did right.
la762 wrote:
umm no i dont think itz a selfish act
i mean you help others and thats good.
if it makes you feel better when you help anyone its because you know that you did right.
I agree :)
Motive, perspective, and empathy are what determine the selfish/selfless-ness of any act. beyond that we are wired to give and share. It made for better hunting/gathering tribes. Ever since we broke through the evolutionary barrier to what we are today we have been developing ways to forget about those things for personal gain, but its still there in our programming.
Sans
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