god help: Is the Will of the Lord God, Lord of the Heavens, free or predestined? - Help.com

Theres no such thing as gods will. I make my own destiny by the choices that I make. Good, bad, right or wrong. No man made god will determine what happens to me. Hope that helps :-)

I think the idea of god and the acceptance of a higher power has always been a way with coping with death. We create an emotional bond with other people, and losing somebody is hard to cope with. Then you have the idea of where’d they go, are they dead, why are we here, what was I pre birth> is that like after death? Then bring on the philosophy : )

i think God lets us make our own mistakes

god or no god you’re still going to die.
your question makes no sense as well.

If you believe in a God, then you must believe that he is unlimited. Therefore, God’s will cannot be predestined as there is nothing that can bind God.

I think your question might be better phrased as such:
Do we, human beings, have any freewill or are our lives entirely predetermined?

All human beings have freewill, which has been granted to us by the Mercy of God, however it subject to limitations (as are most things in this world).

To illustrate:
If I ask you to lift your left leg while standing, you would be able to do so.
Now, if I ask you to lift your right leg as well (while you are already lifting your left leg), you wouldn’t be able to do so because you would be restricted by external forces, in this case gravity.

In the same manner as above your freewill is limited. In fact, no-one can claim that it isn’t. (Your birth, death, ethnicity, family etc. are all predetermined - someone may wish to do something but they can’t because external forces prevent them from doing so - therefore, our freewill has and will always be limited)

This is, however, not to undermine the fact that we still have the capacity to choose many (in fact the majority) of the actions we commit or the directions we take.

In conclusion, freewill exists (you have the choice to commit a particular action or not) but sometimes destiny limits your choices.

IamlightIamlightIaml wrote:
god or no god you’re still going to die.
your question makes no sense as well.

got to agree a little confused with where you are going with this one Happy Mike. I mean acceptance of god… lol reread and read it again!

Is everyone’s destiny preordained? Do you have a choice in the matter of when you die or how you live your life? I gotcha.

“Is not Acceptance as a concept a kind of spiritual medicine to help us with the softening of memories of hurts of the past?”

So in this instance the idea of somebody died that you loved then you have the whole “god closes a door but opens a window” speech.

So again to answer your question it seems yes and believing god has a plan for everyone is spiritual medicine. It softens and gives purpose to death in the family, friends, and even yourself. Is it wrong I dunno?

I personally liked your other response, “Someone told me once that basically it is next to impossible to change our life path(destiny). But if I am still alive and know that my destiny is not positive, then doesn’t it make sense to spend the rest of my destined time trying to change my destiny.”

“Free will or predestined?”

My understanding of this is… God has a plan for all of us. like a pre-determined PURPOSE in life. that’s where destiny comes in (although i don’t really like the term. i’d rather use PURPOSE). but the free will comes in also because it’s our CHOICE whether to follow His purpose or not.

vivzofwale wrote:
“Free will or predestined?”

My understanding of this is… God has a plan for all of us. like a pre-determined PURPOSE in life. that’s where destiny comes in (although i don’t really like the term. i’d rather use PURPOSE). but the free will comes in also because it’s our CHOICE whether to follow His purpose or not.

I don’t like that thinking. It’s like god has a plan for us. Maybe it’s to be a congressman or maybe to be a bus driver. But we have free will so during our years of growing up say the predestined congressman gets parties a lot gets into trouble with the law, gets into money problems, and then becomes some homeless junkie.

Then on the other hand this bus driver grows up poor maybe and tries to escape reality by focusing on his education and becomes a CEO. Now even though their original purposes were changed because of freewill and their choices.

But God would have known about the choices they were going to make in life already before they were born. So does god have many different linear life routes one can make and as it happens you narrow it down to the path that was chosen?

The job purpose doesn’t make sense I understand because for god I imagine work and careers are human, they are made up of our world and would not have any sort of use or worth to him.

Korwinn wrote:

I don’t like that thinking. It’s like god has a plan for us. Maybe it’s to be a congressman or maybe to be a bus driver. But we have free will so during our years of growing up say the predestined congressman gets parties a lot gets into trouble with the law, gets into money problems, and then becomes some homeless junkie.

Then on the other hand this bus driver grows up poor maybe and tries to escape reality by focusing on his education and becomes a CEO. Now even though their original purposes were changed because of freewill and their choices.

But God would have known about the choices they were going to make in life already before they were born. So does god have many different linear life routes one can make and as it happens you narrow it down to the path that was chosen?

The job purpose doesn’t make sense I understand because for god I imagine work and careers are human, they are made up of our world and would not have any sort of use or worth to him.

Korwinn, my definition of purpose doesn’t involve career choice as being a congressman or a bus driver. it’s something bigger than that, not a means to bring food to a table. :p an example maybe is to be an inspiration to orphaned students. or maybe to help the disabled by putting up a foundation. to help poor people. to bring awareness of environmentalism. or something as simple as bringing up children who will do good deeds in this world, trying to be an example for them and giving them love.

so it’s not really a profession, but more of how to improve and enrich relationships and the humanity in this world. :)

thats why I put this at the end: “The job purpose doesn’t make sense I understand because for god I imagine work and careers are human, they are made up of our world and would not have any sort of use or worth to him.”

but you can take that into perspective too. So what if this guy has a lot of potential to good in the world to bring love to others etc… good knows what he can do, his purpose. Then he becomes an alcoholic bum instead. He does nothing but soil himself at 3 am saturday night. Now this was free will that led him to this path, and go had a higher purpose but he failed. But god is god so wouldnt god know that this person was not going to fulfill this purpose in the first place. So why would it be his purpose to be some hmanitarium. When he knew he’d be a drunk

therefor defeating the purpose because god knows the outcome already.

Korwinn wrote:
therefor defeating the purpose because god knows the outcome already.

but then again, do you think a purpose is only given to people who will succeed in doing them? if that is so, it’s so easy to be human then. :)

also, i believe that free will and His guidance occurs simultaneously. yes we are given free will to follow His path. and it’s not always easy. more often than not, we don’t even know His purpose for us and the road is tough. but He gives us guidance (CHANCE, i’d say). maybe he gives us resources. maybe wisdom. or support and love. so everything is brought out for us to fulfill His purpose (again, doesn’t mean it’s easy). but it’s feasible. and it’s up to us to accomplish it.

well if everyone did succeed in that path I suppose that GOD chose for us then we wouldn’t have free will. We would be doing what was expected of us, so in a sense he would be working through us so we would be god….

Maybe you’re right. It doesn’t have to be something big and important to be god’s will or purpose. Maybe he just wants you to fall in love with “stacy” because she has a hard time loving due to childhood abuse growing up. Or giving orphan “edmund” a home.

But why would he say let stacy grow up in a twisted family like that or let edmund have no loving family. Or is it that they are going to be that way not because of there own actions but of there families and families past. So go puts “steve” in the path to help them out later in life.

I dunno its confusing. Sorry about the hypotheticals just examples I guess. I know they are negative ones and it’s not just a purpose negative.

Korwinn wrote:
well if everyone did succeed in that path I suppose that GOD chose for us then we wouldn’t have free will. We would be doing what was expected of us, so in a sense he would be working through us so we would be god….

Maybe you’re right. It doesn’t have to be something big and important to be god’s will or purpose. Maybe he just wants you to fall in love with “stacy” because she has a hard time loving due to childhood abuse growing up. Or giving orphan “edmund” a home.

But why would he say let stacy grow up in a twisted family like that or let edmund have no loving family. Or is it that they are going to be that way not because of there own actions but of there families and families past. So go puts “steve” in the path to help them out later in life.

I dunno its confusing. Sorry about the hypotheticals just examples I guess. I know they are negative ones and it’s not just a purpose negative.

it’s okay. :) i kinda get what you mean and how you feel about it i guess. because i was once exactly like you. well, obviously i changed. but it did give me a different perspective. i must admit though, your examples are still too simplistic. again, the purpose is much bigger. possibly bigger than the person himself.

i think in many ways, we expect God to be generous and just. and i say this with all my heart, HE IS. i guess the only example i could give is our parents. THEY could make our lives easy. they can give us all the candy we want as kids. they can buy us all the latest ipods or computers or whatever. they can drop the curfews. they can let us go on a roadtrip anytime and cut class. it will give us comfort. it will make as happy at the moment. but it’s not for our own good. because to learn, we need to work hard and suffer as well. the generous part might be easy to understand, how about the justice? say a mother has two kids. one is sickly and depressed. the other is healthy and stable. both of them got into the same accident. the mother worries. but she fusses more over the first son (the sickly one) because he’s crying. SEEMS unfair. but the mother has to be with the one who needs help/guidance more.

sorry that was a bit too long. hope i made my point clear. :)

I’m sorry to intrude on your argument but I simply can’t help myself.

Personally, I believe that we have free will. I have to say I agree with Korwinn, that free will and a predestined plan are agents that work against each other, not simultaneously.

The only things we can really know in this argument, however, are really really minimal. There is no proof to suggest we have free will and there is no proof to suggest we don’t. There is no proof to suggest there is a god or any gods, and there is no proof to suggest there isn’t.

May I ask, vivzofwale, if your god has a plan for you I assume that under your belief he/she would have a plan for me too, what is your response to other religions that say their deities have a plan for everyone?

To be honest I read the book the Shack a couple months ago I enjoyed how the authored portrayed God in that book. Seemed to make some sense to me speaking from a theoretical view that God would have especially since I don’t have a very large religious background.

IamlightIamlightIaml wrote:
I’m sorry to intrude on your argument but I simply can’t help myself.

Personally, I believe that we have free will. I have to say I agree with Korwinn, that free will and a predestined plan are agents that work against each other, not simultaneously.

The only things we can really know in this argument, however, are really really minimal. There is no proof to suggest we have free will and there is no proof to suggest we don’t. There is no proof to suggest there is a god or any gods, and there is no proof to suggest there isn’t.

May I ask, vivzofwale, if your god has a plan for you I assume that under your belief he/she would have a plan for me too, what is your response to other religions that say their deities have a plan for everyone?

lol here’s your debate…

Its just the unknown. As humans we are always trying to find answers for everything. Whether its where we came from, why are we what we are, what destiny do we hold. God/s and Science come into fact here. And the Thing is even though we “know” a lot about our world through science there is just so much we can’t prove for or against.

I completely agree with your insinuation on the “knowledge” of science. What do you know of fallibilism?

IamlightIamlightIaml wrote:
The only things we can really know in this argument, however, are really really minimal. There is no proof to suggest we have free will and there is no proof to suggest we don’t. There is no proof to suggest there is a god or any gods, and there is no proof to suggest there isn’t.

May I ask, vivzofwale, if your god has a plan for you I assume that under your belief he/she would have a plan for me too, what is your response to other religions that say their deities have a plan for everyone?

going beyond my own religion, i believe there is only one God but in different forms (actually, i don’t want to use the word ‘form’ but i can’t think of any right now). and those different ‘forms’ manifest as different religions. i can’t claim to know all religions of the world but so far there similarities in many of them. although this is kind of a Hinduistic belief, i guess. which is weird because i’m not Hindu.

ahout that paragraph i quoted above, the proof/no proof thing actually goes without saying (at least for me). i have spoken about this extensively in many posts here at help.com and in many instances. absolutely, with all my knowledge so far, i can’t prove that God exists - knowing that by proof we are talking about scientific methods. i don’t even consider it an argument, i will never argue about the existence per se (coz the post originally simply asked about my belief in free will, not the existence). why wouldn’t i argue? well, coz i will surely lose. i can’t prove God exists (or doesn’t exist). and nobody can.

i know this might be off topic but it crossed my mind just now. a lot of people who do not have religion/doesn’t believe in any higher being always argue that people who do otherwise do not think freely. that we are perhaps blind followers to a “man made” doctrine and we can’t think for ourselves and are resigned to what our parents and the church taught us. or that what we see is only what is real they claim to be open minded when in fact, the same goes for them too. i mean, there are many times that i have questioned my belief in God but i made my final decision. does that mean i never analyzed freely? in fact quite the opposite.

btw, i’m not pertaining to you guys in that last paragraph. it suddenly popped in my mind that’s all. i guess being in the topic of religion :)

I have to disagree with you vivzofwale.
You are binded by the laws of religion, whereas I have no religion, and are therefore not binded by any religious laws.

The ability for a religious person to be open minded is very limited, because beliefs only allow you to read situations and text etc. very selectively. When you die you go to heaven, yes? But then you haven’t considered any other possibilities of what might happen when you die, and if you are open to these other possibilities, then aren’t you rejecting your religion?

IamlightIamlightIaml wrote:
I have to disagree with you vivzofwale.
You are binded by the laws of religion, whereas I have no religion, and are therefore not binded by any religious laws.

i have to disagree back. :) i’m not ‘binded’ by a religious law because i chose it. if i were binded by it, then it seems i shouldn’t have been given a choice, or a faculty of thought, or i am deathly afraid of repercussions if i do otherwise. but i’m not any of those. :)

i’d like to think that my being open minded is as limited/unlimited as a person with no religious belief.

as i mentioned i think in one of my earlier posts, i have gone through a questioning phase in my life. and in the end i made a DECISION about it. :)

“because beliefs only allow you to read situations and text etc. very selectively” i guess this is what i was talking about exactly at my previous post about people making a judgement about us. belief is a process (at least for me). it doesn’t take overnight for me to “believe”. i might be born into my religion (by that i mean, my parents have the same religion). but it took me years.. well into my adulthood.. to finally decide if i want to follow it or not. so how did i read situations/text “selectively” in that? i’d like to think i’m an objective person who is not simply blinded by doctrine. after all, i am a biologist.

you can still reply but i have to go to work now. :) i’ll catch you later!

I really appreciate that explanation. There are so many, too many, people in modern society who follow a belief because it’s popular, or it’s ‘right’, or it’s their family’s belief. I am very glad to here you found your religion, you found what suits you, what you believe, and I respect your choice. I apologize for being ignorant and assuming that you were another blind follower of Christianity.

Binded by a doctrine? Personally I don’t think it is possible to follow the bibles rules. The mere fact of being human we feel resentment, jealousy, love, lust, anger etc… Those guidelines for living are “godly” and we are not God. It’s the “perfect” way to live a life and we are not perfect.

happymike40 wrote:
When I do good, I suffer for it by satanic attacks. I am limited so I can only handle so many satanic attacks. So when I am weak, and being semi-human, I know there will be many points where I am open to satanic attack. So, sooner or later I have to do some good to satan, albeit very regretful, out of a sense of extorionistic survival. There are beings that have more power than men, but less power than God, and they are always present, waiting for sogns of wekaness.

what are you talking about, when it rains it pours scenario? Not sure exactly where you’re going, but I do feel ya on some of it. Seems last 5 years or so every time my life is going well something happens that just knocks me back down a couple pegs. It’s like I have to live in a sense of misery all the time. I’ve considered being cursed, but the in reality I just made poor decisions which led to certain repercussions but the same things don’t ever seem to happen to my friends or other people I know when they make the same mistakes or poor judgment calls.

I’m learning to adapt and deal or “be happy” in this lesser lifestyle I now have so it always makes me wonder whats going to happen next.

If God is all knowing and knows me better then I know myself then His thoughts and His ways predestined for me will be far greater and fulfilling then anything else i could try to accomplish by my own thoughts and ways and His will is for all of us not to perish.

Don’t take my word for it though, take his Word

Isaiah 55:8-9

2 Peter 3:9

Luke 21:33

might sound foolish to some people but hopefully these verses help others

Do not preach to me.

IamlightIamlightIaml wrote:
Do not preach to me.

this site is so funny. There seems to be so many agnostic or atheist VS pro-religion

Yeah I agree haha but the religious stuff really frustrates me because so many of them seem to assume the initial poster is the same religion as their-self. That sentence sounds really clunky but I’m not rewording it.

I respect individual decisions to religion but I do not respect preachers. I do not need to be saved. I do not to be told how tops their deity is, because if I wanted to know how tops he supposedly is, I would google it.

I respect all religions so all religions should respect my choice to be non-religious.

im not a preacher just a college student and i didn’t see a particular God so i decided to use not just my opinion but my doctrine i can base it upon. It was meant for the person who posted the post.

105 wrote:
If God is all knowing and knows me better then I know myself then His thoughts and His ways predestined for me will be far greater and fulfilling then anything else i could try to accomplish by my own thoughts and ways and His will is for all of us not to perish.

Don’t take my word for it though, take his Word

Isaiah 55:8-9

2 Peter 3:9

Luke 21:33

might sound foolish to some people but hopefully these verses help others

its interesting scripture. Not knocking it. it’s relevant to OP question.

105 wrote:

Don’t take my word for it though, take his Word

This is where I thought you were preaching, rather than suggesting.

Thanks Korwinn if you read those scriptures thats cool thanks for reading my whole post then and if you didn’t well thanks for still being nice.

and fair enough IamlightIamlighIaml, I just didn’t want to post something that seemed was just my philosophy.

105 wrote:
Thanks Korwinn if you read those scriptures thats cool thanks for reading my whole post then and if you didn’t well thanks for still being nice.

and fair enough IamlightIamlighIaml, I just didn’t want to post something that seemed was just my philosophy.

i read a couple power of google!

No I enjoy arguments and debates. I don’t have a problem with religion over science. The fact is even though we have discovered a lot of the natural world there is a lot unexplained. My big thing I find interesting is coincidentally life is on this planet which is coincidentally the right distance from the sun not to be to hot or cold, the moon is the right distance from the earth and the earth from the sun that from earth the moon and sun appear to be the same exact size.

Also what I find interesting is that all the human cultures believe in some sort of creator or god/. Kind of weird this innate ability every human being has that there must be more than this life. Or when we are children you don’t have a doubt that god does not exist it when you get older that you start thinking outside the box logic kind of takes over. (this is good or bad and can be answered either thinking for yourself or maybe the school system has corrupted your thoughts with science. or maybe your parents just implanted god in your head as a child and children are esily influenced by ideas, lol , sorry I get on a roll with ideas sometimes)

This is an interesting post, so I thought I’d add my thoughts as well. I’m not trying to preach or anything, just trying to add to the thread.

On the freewill and destiny point:

I believe that although we have freewill to make the decisions that we do, God is already aware of the decision that we will eventually make. Obviously, whenever we have to make a decision we are presented with several options. My understanding is that although we can choose any of these options, it is still known to God which of the options we will choose. This is not because God planned that we make this decision but rather because he is not bound by time. So the theory goes: God knows the decisions we are going to make because he is not bound by time (meaning that he can see the past, present and future at the same time … since time in itself is a creation which cannot bind the Creator) not because he intended that we pursue such a decision (therefore, the decision can be right or wrong and is worthy of being judged and in turn is rewardable or punishable).

And here is my rationalization for believing in God: (Again just my thoughts not trying to preach and I know its long, sorry!)

IF WE ACCEPT THAT WE ARE TO BE JUDGED AFTER DEATH, THEN IT IS LOGICAL (atleast for me) TO ACCEPT THAT THERE EXISTS AN ALL KNOWING, JUST, POWERFUL (etc.) ENTITY CAPABLE OF JUDGING US (ie A GOD)

HYPOTHESIS: WE WILL BE JUDGED BY GOD AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE (that futuristic point is known in some religions as the DAY OF JUDGEMENT - Christianity, Islam, Judaism, among others!)

If people simply rationalized the purpose of the present, they would realise that their present existence would have no meaning if there was nothing after death … thinking logically, there must be a stage where we are judged, there must be a heaven and a hell … it is He who created us and unto Him we must return … only our actions will determine whether that is by proceeding through hell before entering heaven or by simply going to heaven.

REASONING: WHY SHOULD WE ACCEPT THAT WE WILL BE JUDGED AT SOME STAGE?

hott6 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Can you explain what you mean when you say “thinking logically”? What does that mean “there must be a stage where we are judged” How is that a logical conclusion? I’m honestly curious.

[quote Anonymous] Me too. Throughout the thousands of years of religion none of these faiths or belief structures has ever been proven. I would never deny someone’s faith but I find it increasingly hard to understand in the face of science.

Well, first to start off … if you think deeply about life its clear that we all do have some sort of moral compass, I don’t think it can be denied that we all make judgements whether knowingly or unknowingly as to whether something is right or wrong, as to whether someone’s actions are moral or immoral, as to whether our own actions are correct or incorrect … when you add to that the choice/free will/option that we as human beings have been given to decide what actions we wish to pursue … I think it’s only reasonable to think that there must be some form of judgement stage at one point or another, because in the human being you have a creature that has two fundamental elements: freewill and morality (whether morality that one is being judged on is subjective depending on the views of the person or objective based on some universal standard is a separate question).

To summarize, the logic goes … if a creature has the ability to freely choose the actions it takes and beyond that it has the mental capacity to understand whether that decision/action is one which under a particular framework will be judged to be moral or immoral, it seems to me the only reason for a creature to be given such abilities/capacities would be because the creature will be judged at some later time.

Similar principles explain the entire legal system, which essentially judges a person on their actions and thoughts (eg. motive in criminal cases) and it can rightly do so only because a person has freewill and a sense of right from wrong. If you think about it, under the legal system even those who are not doing anything illegal are being judged, the only difference is that there is no reward for not acting illegally (ie acting legally). In the same way, in life, someone can make wrongful choices and will be punished for them at some point and that same person will make rightful choices and will be rewarded for them at some point.

Therefore, to me it seems that it is only logical to believe that humanity is destined to be judged and since I personally believe that the ultimate judge is God, only he will be the final judge.

(I know this is long and complex but i’ve tried to get as many points in as i could and still have the text somewhat flow. Sorry, if it doesn’t make sense!)

WHY DOES THERE HAVE TO BE A REASON WE HAVE A MORAL CODE?

That’s a hard question to answer but I believe that I was created for a reason and what is part of me, including my moral code, is there for a reason. In fact, I think everything in the universe has a reason as it is one big system (the entire universe is bound by time and space) but it is what is outside of this universe (which is not bound by parameters, as in God) that does not require a reason or cause.

THEREFORE: I BELIEVE THAT WE CAN DERIVE THAT A GOD EXISTS, IF WE SIMPLY ACCEPT THAT WE WERE MADE TO BE JUDGED AT SOME POINT.

PS Hope this helps! This is just one angle from which I derive my belief in God. Thought it might add a new perspective to the debate!

Coolbrav wrote:
This is an interesting post, so I thought I’d add my thoughts as well. I’m not trying to preach or anything, just trying to add to the thread.

On the freewill and destiny point:

I believe that although we have freewill to make the decisions that we do, God is already aware of the decision that we will eventually make. Obviously, whenever we have to make a decision we are presented with several options. My understanding is that although we can choose any of these options, it is still known to God which of the options we will choose. This is not because God planned that we make this decision but rather because he is not bound by time. So the theory goes: God knows the decisions we are going to make because he is not bound by time (meaning that he can see the past, present and future at the same time … since time in itself is a creation which cannot bind the Creator) not because he intended that we pursue such a decision (therefore, the decision can be right or wrong and is worthy of being judged and in turn is rewardable or punishable).

Ok if we go to thinking about punishable. How can god let us be created and born if he knows we are going to end up down the wrong path in life. I mean essentially its like we are given a life to live, we choose how to live it, and then we will be either punished or loved by how we lived that life. It just seems pointless to even let somebody live a life that will be sent to hell for.

But again i guess it is freewill so god has to let us do our thing and be fair and let each of us live a life on earth. Then we are right back at what I AM LIGHT said, “that free will and a predestined plan are agents that work against each other, not simultaneously.”

ya Korwinn most if not all have their doubts when they get older, when i was approached by these questions i decided to not let my mind be polluted on what other peoples agendas were, but to do my own research by reading all sources of religious doctrine and non religious doctrine. Lol it took months but what I discovered was irrefutable, thus no one can ever cause me to stray away from what i believe. I just find it bizarre that most people just trust what anyone says, they would rather hear what someone says on youtube or trust their parents or professors to answer the big question the meaning of life. That question can only be answered when you search for it, i guess it was pretty easy for me because you could say i have a better understanding of people through my sociology and psychology studies so i didn’t do my research with a type of animosity towards one group or belief, however i do believe in absolute truth, so I do believe there is only one right answer. Unfortunately someone might read that and get offended by it, but it truly wasn’t my intentions.

happymike40 wrote:
I really like your responses Mr. Korwinn, or is it Dr. Korwinn. I can feel the wisdom in your statements. I’ve had good times and bad times too. However, I am diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. I really don’t hear voices at all. However, I have always been pretty paranoid, even before the traditional onset of the illness in my early twenties. I’m not claiming to be psychic or anything, but I would engage in the habit of overanticipating things, based only situtationally, on how I kind of figured they would normally go. So many times in the past, but not always I could basically survive things very well. But moving perhaps up from survival to really living gives me a heck of a time. That is the reason I sometimes post so negatively. I personally have had almost zero fulfilling significant other relationships in my life, even since the early years. And I think it was a natural thing to feel jealous of people around me coming and going with lovers when I would always be alone. It has actually made me suicidal for many years. However, for some bizarre reason, I have not been that way pretty much most of the time for a good year. However, that doesn’t mean that my lack of love has changed one iota. Rather, I have discovered ideas in math and philsophy, even in music and computers that are amazing to me, that give me great joy. Ideas which I never thought in my wildest dreams I would come across. And furthermore, I must give all the glory to God because certain new intuitions keep coming my way, even though I pretty much said to myself more than six months ago that I wouldn’t mind if I never learned anything more, because I was very happy with what I had at the time. I would still like to get your email address because I can tell you are very insightful and possibly a sage that could better instruct me how to deal with this wonderful and God given information. Thank you, Michael.

haha man have you got my number wrong… No I enjoy thinking about life and ideas that we cannot fathom. It’s interesting and you get a lot of perspectives. you can just shout out to me on help.com glad to be apart of your posts : )

IamlightIamlightIaml wrote:
I really appreciate that explanation. There are so many, too many, people in modern society who follow a belief because it’s popular, or it’s ‘right’, or it’s their family’s belief. I am very glad to here you found your religion, you found what suits you, what you believe, and I respect your choice. I apologize for being ignorant and assuming that you were another blind follower of Christianity.

thanks for that and i appreciate the apology. it’s weird though because i know more people who are more sound about their belief than actual “blind” followers. i guess this is because the “blind” followers are those who are ready to attack when provoked with a debate. just more passionate about it i guess. while people who DECIDED to believe in their God are rather more calm. mostly because they feel secure and sure. and not always giving in to potentially violent debates. :)

Coolbrav wrote:

THEREFORE: I BELIEVE THAT WE CAN DERIVE THAT A GOD EXISTS, IF WE SIMPLY ACCEPT THAT WE WERE MADE TO BE JUDGED AT SOME POINT.

Coolbrav, I appreciate your input. I honestly haven’t heard that take on the free will debate, it’s really interesting.

Still, I have to argue. We have no proof that there is a meaning to life. It is possible that we live and then we die.

Also, I am inclined to think that the moral codes we individually abide by are products of society. Kind of like, evil people think they are never doing evil things. Racism in say the 19th century is immoral in my opinion, but at the time, did the racists think it was immoral? What we believe seems to really depend on the context of our lives.

I can’t agree with the idea that we all have the same moral code, and some of us simply choose to ignore it. And if this is not the case, suggesting all people have different moral codes implies that if we were to all be judged, people would be punished for acts that the they think are moral. The ‘judge’ would have created people to be punished.

I really do think that we need keep delving further and further and continue to stretch our imaginations. It is necessary, and yet completely essential, that we are existential when we think about this philosophy, that is, barred from all outside influences.

The reason I cannot believe in a religion is that it is too simple to me. Moral codes aren’t that simple, what’s after life isn’t that simple, right and wrong isn’t that simple. I do not think we will ever get our true answers, and I think religion tries to provide them.

IamlightIamlightIaml wrote:
The reason I cannot believe in a religion is that it is too simple to me. Moral codes aren’t that simple, what’s after life isn’t that simple, right and wrong isn’t that simple. I do not think we will ever get our true answers, and I think religion tries to provide them.

Sorry to hear that you feel that way but I have to disagree. I don’t think that religion is too simple, in fact, I would argue the opposite; that it’s quite complex. I think the problem is that there are too many people who look at religion from a distant perspective, who simply gloss over the surface of a religion’s concepts and principles and assume that they have a good understanding of that reliigion.

(by the way, forgive me if I sound accusatory, I’m not trying to accuse you of the above … just sharing from my experience what I think alot of people seem to do before completely writing off religion altogether.)

There is a lot of depth to some religions, its just we have to delve deeper into the meanings concealed at the heart of that particular religion to find our answers. And to be honest, some people say that science has or will find the answers they are looking for but why don’t we analyse religions and science together, many a times science and religion, in fact, support/complement each other. (They aren’t always agents working against one another!)

What is to say that religion is not made up out of nowhere? What is to say that science is irrefutably correct?

What is to say that both science and a particular religion are both irrefutably correct at the same time? What is to say that a religion must necessarily conflict with/contradict science?

And just a thought, many scientific theories from the past have been proven wrong and I’m sure many theories that we believe to be true today will be proven to be wrong in the future. Eg, people used to believe that the Earth was flat - clearly that was a scientific theory of its time and yet it was correctly refuted/proven wrong later on, etc.

Maybe, the answers we’re looking for are found in neither religion nor science alone. Maybe, you have to consider both rather than completely disregarding one or the other!

Happy Mike I completely agree. I follow nothing.

Coolbrav you aren’t listening to what you’re saying. You are taking my questions and turning them around! Anyone can do that.

We will never have answers. Not with religion or science or anything else. And also, science and religion often contradict, and your point in saying that they can complement each other doesn’t make sense… How can you believe in evolution and that a god created the earth?

IamlightIamlightIaml wrote:
Happy Mike I completely agree. I follow nothing.

Coolbrav you aren’t listening to what you’re saying. You are taking my questions and turning them around! Anyone can do that.

We will never have answers. Not with religion or science or anything else. And also, science and religion often contradict, and your point in saying that they can complement each other doesn’t make sense… How can you believe in evolution and that a god created the earth?

unless what we perceive as evolution is what some creator intended for us. But then that would a still contradict the earth being built over 7 days, man in his image, etc… Who I knows I agree you and happy mike. Just there are things that our knowledge of science still can not explain to the day and I am sure what we think we know also will be proven wrong or there’s more to it.

Why is it that the majority of Atheist/Agnostic v Religion debates focus around Christian views alone? There are other religions out there, where it is perfectly compatible to reason that God created the earth through evolution as he caused evolution to take place. Again, I’m not trying to turn your questions around for no reason and I know that anyone can do that, but I think its important sometimes to consider questions phrased differently in order to understand the authenticity of the original question itself. All I was trying to do was to give you a new perspective.

And as I have said before, religion doesn’t necessarily have to contradict science.

Eg: Lets talk about death, shall we?

Science says that energy can neither be created nor can it be destroyed, right? Some people say that religion contradicts this because, as they argue, according to religion when a person dies his soul departs this world therefore leading to the disappearance of that persons energy source.

Well, i disagree, there are religions out there that claim that the soul is in fact the energy that lies within a person and since the soul is still present even after death and for eternity, the energy is present from the beginning to the very end (the only difference being that the energy is transferred into a different form of energy) -> this perspective on the argument is completely consistent with science.

Please don’t limit your argument because if you wish to argue against God than you are essentially arguing against all systems of belief that lead to a belief in God (or Gods for that matter) –> Christianity is only one, albeit large, strand of these belief systems!

Also, I’d like to pose a question!

When a person dies what happens to the energy that their body carries? (It can’t vanish nor disappear, it can’t be destroyed, does the energy simply stay within the body as it is buried or cremated - effectively becoming unusable? — Without belief in a religion, you can’t genuinely believe in a soul, therefore the Abrahamic view is thrown out the window as well! So, what exactly happens to this energy?? Is it somehow expelled from the body and if so how is that done??)

And better yet, is death the complete end of our existence for eternity?

Sorry! That wasn’t one question, it was about 10! My bad! :D

I like that question it’s interesting.

I don’t really believe in science, so I don’t think I’m the right person to answer that in a scientific view, but I guess I’d say that I believe in souls. But maybe not the kind religion always talks about. I have to argue that if you don’t believe in religion you can’t believe in souls, because you obviously can. There’s nothing you can’t believe in.

I agree with you completely! … “There’s nothing you can’t believe in.”

So, let me rephrase my position - You can certainly believe in a soul (or souls) without a belief in god or a religion, it’s just harder to back up/substantiate/rationalize your belief in it (as the concept of a soul intially arose from religion, which supports the concept on the basis of a belief in God).

Then again, it depends on how you view/define soul!

One Holy Scripture states:
“Unto you your religion [or belief or non-belief] and unto me my religion”

But how do you know that soul originated from religion?
If religion is based entirely on fact, than how does religion have more evidence of souls than anything else? And how can you have evidence of souls?

I would say that believing in souls is spiritual as opposed to religious? Do you agree/disagree?

I somewhat agree, somewhat disagree. :D

For me, spirituality and religion are very interlinked (one leading to the other).

To me religion isn’t simply a set of commands, it encompasses all aspects of life. Actually, everything in religion (at least the one I believe in) has an aspect of spirituality. So, to separate the two seems kind of artificial. In fact, I would go a bit further and say that I view spirituality in relation to God (the closer you are to God, the higher you are spiritually). But that’s just me!

Its similar to when people say that public life should be completely separate from private life and your religion should be restricted only to private life. Again, I find that to be an artificial separation. Maybe under certain religions, people are able to perform all of their obligations in private but for the majority of religions, that isn’t true.

Eg. Muslims fast (Although, its a private decision, it still affects their public life)
Another Eg. Sikhs must wear turbans (its their personal choice but they must still display it in public)

In many cases, its simply not possible to separate the two and I believe the same applies to spirituality and religion.

I’m curious to know your opinion, though! How do you view spirituality? How do/would you attain greater spirituality?

I would agree with you that if you are religious you are spiritual as well, but I don’t think it goes the other way. I don’t think that just because you are spiritual you should be religious.

For most religious people spirituality and religion are really intertwined, like you’ve said, and so yes, trying to separate the two would be infeasible..

I would define spirituality as having conscious links to that which we cannot explain. Does that make sense? When I think of spirituality, I think of souls and super natural and higher beings. I think religion sort of takes spirituality further in that it expands on the belief of the spiritual. So religion adds rules and obligations and everything because each religion sees their ideas as a path to sort of pleasing the spiritual world, things like that.

What I’m trying to say is that if you understand it like that, you can see how it would be impossible for someone to be religious without being spiritual, but it would be possible for someone to be spiritual without being religious. The best example I can think of is pretty morbid, but with people who get cancer and have chemotherapy; so, if someone has chemo they have cancer, but if someone has cancer they might not necessarily have chemo. Does that make sense..

Sorry I’ve rambled. What are your thoughts?

So if I follow correctly, then:
The greater your conscious links to that which we cannot explain, the higher your standing, spiritually speaking.

I agree! My view is the same but I define God as being the only entity whom we cannot explain (in my opinion everything else is explainable), so then I would reach the conclusion –> “The greater your closeness to/ your conscious links with God, the higher your standing spiritually.”

Here’s an interesting quote, which sort of sums up some of my reasoning for the above:
“Whoever said in what is He(God), held that He is limited; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical closeness. He is detached from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and apparatus. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in its absence.”

Gods’ Will is both free and predestined. On the path, you have a choice of this or that. You choose by your free-will. According to your choice the outcome is predestined God directs your steps.