science help: PROOF AND FAITH: THE EXTERNAL AND THE INTERNAL.

Tictactomm

PROOF AND FAITH: THE EXTERNAL AND THE INTERNAL.

This is a long post. My apologies. But then again, you can quit now while you are ahead.

There is an exterior means of knowing and relating to the universe: this is science and the measureable/provable: a quantifiable external world ground in and verified by emperical theory. I think we all agree.

But there is also an interior means of knowing and relating to the universe (unique to the individual, non quantifiable). Do not doubt the existence of this interior means of knowing. It forms the basic foundation of relating to and interacting with the external world.

PROOF OF THIS INTERIOR MEANS OF PERCEIVING REALITY.
Imagine a pink elephant wearing a green tutu, floating off the ground with a “Palin for Prez″ sticker stuck to its butt. This pink, tutu-wearing elephant may exist in your mind’s eye, and it may be a little (or a lot) different from what one person imagines to the next, but it obviously doesn’t exist in the external world. Certainly it doesn’t exist among the electric currents that charge your brain matter does it? Does that mean that it doesn’t exist at all? No, after all you exist (Descartes “I think therefore I am”) therefore that pink elephant that you imagined must exist, in that “unprovable” internal reality. The elephant may not be “real”, but the means of perceiving it, you and your internal consciousness, is.

LET’S TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER…
Let’s say a number of us share enough of that same image of the pink, tutu-wearing elephant that we can build a common understanding and interpretation of it, particularly if the first of us who “saw” that elephant can gave some direction about what it should look like and what it should mean to you when you “see” it for yourself. Now, substitute “Pink tutu-wearing Elephant” for “God”.

IN MY OPINION…
Upon having an internal awareness of “God” firmly in my own mind’s eye, and respecting that this internal understanding of “God” is an evolving awareness over my lifetime, then my interpretation of the external world is affected by that and I can therefore “see” abundant evidence of God’s presence in the external world. Unprovable? Subjective? Unreplicable in a laboratory? Absolutely. As valid an interpretation of reality as something viewed under a microscope? Absolutely (for the record, my perception of “God” isn’t a pink, tutu-wearing elephant, but I allow that for others it may be).

BOTH THE INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL ARE VALID, BUT CAN’T BE TREATED AS PROOF OF EACH OTHER.
We cannot objectively prove something that exists only within our internal perception (so for all of you “show me proof” people, it won’t happen, it can’t happen). AND we cannot hold our internal perceptions up as an objective truth (so for all of you “God exists, end of discussion” people, your faith doesn’t qualify as being externally valid, no matter how passionately you believe it).

FAITH IS AN INTERNAL PERCEPTION OF REALITY BUT IT IS STILL REALITY
Thomas Aquinas said “Faith is believing what you do not see, and the reward of faith is seeing what you believe”. My faith that there has to be something BENEVOLENT at the centre of it all is purely subjective and grounded in my own experience which, I have no doubt, will continue to change over the course of my lifetime. It is not something that I feel I have to defend or evangelize. But in so believing it, I can see it in the patterns of my life and this world, and I know my mind wouldn’t make those connections if I wasn’t open to it. But that’s the beauty of the whole show! Reality can be perceived externally and internally, and can blend with each other. But it will be a unique blend for each us. Isn’t that an intoxicating thought?

“FAITH” DOESN’T MEAN GOOD.
This is just an aside, but faith in God and/or religion does not automatically grant you a higher sense of morality or ethics. Choosing to be a good person is independent of choosing to believe in God. And please don’t believe in God because it “might” be true. That “better cover my bets” faith isn’t faith at all. It’s fear.

LETS CONCLUDE BY THROWING A MONKEY WRENCH INTO THE ENTIRE POST.
To get a little “out there” from a science perspective, metaphysics provides that the mere act of observation can change the state of matter on a subatomic level. Perception is reality? The internal ultimately shapes the external? Possibly, but the proof is in the mail.

This open post was written 1 month, 3 weeks ago | V/U/S: 183, 12, 7 | Edit Post | Leave a reply | Report Post

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Since writing this post Tictactomm has helped in 2 other users' posts within the last 4 days. Tictactomm is a verified member, has been around for 1 year, 10 months and has 20 posts and 1,375 replies to their name.

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Replies (12)

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Tictactomm invited 24 users to read this post 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

Help me with: Hello.

fla 19 #
An Unknown Location | 1 month, 3 weeks ago (21 minutes after post)

I concur

Anonymous #
1 month, 3 weeks ago (3 hours, 2 minutes after post)

Certainly it doesn’t exist among the electric currents that charge your brain matter does it?

Yes. Now please leave and take your fail with you.

srnityblu 3 #
Regina, SK, CA | 1 month, 3 weeks ago (3 hours, 16 minutes after post)

Thank you for the invite, it has been a while!

Help me with: Need a moderator to help get a friend back on to this site… computer was used by someone who got banned, and now the

Sans 57 #
An Undisclosed Location | 1 month, 3 weeks ago (6 hours, 54 minutes after post)

Wonderful post, Tictactomm. We seem to have similar views.

echealth 0 #
An Unknown Location | 1 month, 2 weeks ago (2 days, 12 hours after post)

I hope to find a quality suicide pill to help me forget that I read this.

Tictactomm 2 #
Edmonton, AB, CA | 1 month, 2 weeks ago (2 days, 12 hours after post)

echealth wrote:
I hope to find a quality suicide pill to help me forget that I read this.

Good Luck! I’m sure you have lots of quality life insurance.

Help me with: Hello.

AKITHMA 8 #
An Undisclosed Location | 1 month, 2 weeks ago (4 days, 8 hours after post)

for me my internal matters manifest externally even as for others to witness with five senses

anyway you awaken the muse of establishment,heres the tell tale symptoms haha

i hope you dont mind

i breath therefore i hope

the moment is precision
an incision on the body gaia
into the workings of child alike
a collision of will
inherited still
a decision has been maintained
a balance of design
cry my father sky
the sacred has been touched
the surface calls for the waters of reflections
the image of her sorrow must rain and reign supremely
the temple must be cleansed for the star walker
the light foot
golden soul
so be gentle in your weepings mother old
have care
else you wet my wings through
and i be unfit for flight
the hills are in reach
as are the meadows
a fellow should beholden to
if they are called suns of tommorow
i wish you safe surf
and still waters that are tide
many more good tidings
and quicker passage in hiding
the moment is limited and faces must show themself
the curtain of heavens theatre must be drawn apart for the majestic marvel
the arrival of celebration is a loud whisper
that will become a almighty voice
a choice fantastic
im asking myself am i you
do you do what i knew you would
who drew the cosmos in one whole breath
one quess
is this a test to forget i respect
it is sadly negative in a positive outcome
the good word is want
give me the tears of soothing storm
and planned cause
the persona of a brooding …
is this process
The most vital factor of the incubation is the constant temperature required for development . …
the egg earth must configure beneath the wings of first fire
the first liar shall get his desire
and the children of harmony will dance in the blazing song sung
i have waited for you
many many moons i laid my head to silence in agony
the extacy was the dream that is fullfilled in time
in part of me

i believe in wishing i believe belief
do you
dreams can come true

and even in deaths grip
im close enough to touch the sky

and if i would
you could
we should ellivate the state of mind
eminate faith
and be untouchable because we can be see
even now we are lifted and sparkle
sure love mine
it is head electric
devine spine
drive the head alter further ashore this emotional ocean
that shall sure fall on mine
swim if you want
swim faster fish
the liquid is upon us
and i do not question what is my world
aquatic feed

for me my internal matters manifest externally even as  for others to witness with  five senses

anyway you awaken the muse of establishment,heres the tell tale symptoms haha

i hope you dont mind

i breath therefore i hope

the moment is precision 
an incision on the body gaia
into the workings of child alike
a collision of will
inherited still
a decision has been maintained
a balance of design
cry my father sky
the sacred has been touched
the surface calls for the waters of reflections
the image of her sorrow must rain and reign supremely
the temple must be cleansed for the star walker
the light foot
golden soul
so be gentle in your weepings mother old
have care
else you wet my wings through
and i be unfit  for flight
the hills are in reach
as are the meadows
a fellow should beholden to
if they are called suns of tommorow
i wish you safe surf
and still waters that are tide
many more good tidings
and quicker passage in hiding
the moment is limited and faces must show themself
the curtain of heavens theatre must be drawn apart for the majestic marvel
the arrival of celebration is a loud whisper
that will become a almighty voice
a choice fantastic
im asking myself am i you
do you do what i knew you would
who drew the cosmos in one whole breath
one quess
is this a test to forget i respect
it is sadly negative in a positive outcome
the good word is want
give me the tears of soothing storm
and planned cause
the persona of a brooding ...
 is this  process 
The most vital factor of the  incubation is the constant temperature required for  development . ...
the egg        earth           must configure beneath the wings of first fire
the first liar shall get his desire
and the children of harmony will dance in the blazing song sung
i have waited for you 
many many moons i laid my head to silence in agony
the extacy was the dream that is fullfilled in time 
in part of me

i believe in wishing i believe belief
do you
dreams can come true

and even in deaths grip
im close enough to touch the sky

and if i would
you could 
we should ellivate the state of mind
eminate faith
and be untouchable because we can be    see
even now we are lifted and  sparkle 
sure love mine
it is head electric 
devine spine
 drive the head alter further ashore this emotional ocean 
that shall sure fall on mine
swim if you want
swim faster fish
the liquid is upon us
and i do not question what is my world
aquatic feed

Help me with: I want to help

Tictactomm 2 #
Edmonton, AB, CA | 1 month, 2 weeks ago (4 days, 11 hours after post)

Now Aki, that poem is definitely an internal awareness of an external reality! Nice!

Help me with: Hello.

2greeneyes 3 #
Midvale, UT, US | 1 month, 2 weeks ago (4 days, 23 hours after post)

LOL Aki,
Thank you, I’m internally grateful for the virtual external reality view. Felt good to exercise that. Clear the cobwebs and such!

Help me with: What On Earth?

BIG AL 1 416 #
An Unknown Location | 4 weeks, 1 day ago (3 weeks, 1 day after post)

Pardon me for asking. I’m a rather dense person with little to no understanding. Do you believe that as we percieve God internally, that this somehow manifests God Himself?
As I am aware, I know that I exist both externally and internally. I do not believe that if all the people internalized my non-existance that I would no longer exist. The same said concerning God.
The imagination is a powerful tool and can be used in only one of two ways. The first way is, the imagination can be used in ratio that is complimentary and conforms to the exterrior reality. This provides uniformed consistancy and perception to existance. Secondly, the imagination can imagine things which are contrary to the harmony of exterrior and interrior reality. Thus a category called “fantasy.” It is the true nonexistance of an object in exterrior reality or the interrior reality. What makes it so, is the percieved object vaporizes upon perishing of the thought - it has no residence on the inside and it never had the chance of existing exterriorly.

Empericle theory is oxymorn (sorry). Theory is theory - it can be based on Empericle EVIDENCE, but tangible evidence, itself, does not make theory Empericle. If the theory that 1+1=2 is substantiated by tangible evidence there is no longer a form of “theory”, as it is fact. The discovery and realization of the such does not, in and of itself, make a newley discovered fact true. It was true the entire time we did not understand it or went on in ignorance of it.

Such as is God. All things that exist, which are not seen, do exist. It dosen’t mean they’re invisable, but just out of the reach of sight.

If you want to see what atheists are calling stupid and ridiclous, read the comments on You Tube: Creation ‘Science’ made easy. I proposed that the substantiation of the known universe is kept in existance by the Diatonic Scale of musical notation - and the piranhas came out to eat on that!

Have fun, man, at least you’re thinking

Pardon me for asking.  I'm a rather dense person with little to no understanding.  Do you believe that as we percieve God internally, that this somehow manifests God Himself?
  As I am aware, I know that I exist both externally and internally.  I do not believe that if all the people internalized my non-existance that I would no longer exist.  The same said concerning God.
  The imagination is a powerful tool and can be used in only one of two ways.  The first way is, the imagination can be used in ratio that is complimentary and conforms to the exterrior reality.  This provides uniformed consistancy and perception to existance.  Secondly, the imagination can imagine things which are contrary to the harmony of exterrior and interrior reality.  Thus a category called "fantasy."  It is the true nonexistance of an object in exterrior reality or the interrior reality.  What makes it so, is the percieved object vaporizes upon perishing of the thought - it has no residence on the inside and it never had the chance of existing exterriorly.

Empericle theory is oxymorn (sorry).  Theory is theory - it can be based on Empericle EVIDENCE, but tangible evidence, itself, does not make theory Empericle.  If the theory that 1+1=2 is substantiated by tangible evidence there is no longer a form of "theory", as it is fact.  The discovery and realization of the such does not, in and of itself, make a newley discovered fact true.  It was true the entire time we did not understand it or went on in ignorance of it.

Such as is God.  All things that exist, which are not seen, do exist.  It dosen't mean they're invisable, but just out of the reach of sight.

If you want to see what atheists are calling stupid and ridiclous, read the comments on You Tube: Creation 'Science' made easy.  I proposed that the substantiation of the known universe is kept in existance by the Diatonic Scale of musical notation - and the piranhas came out to eat on that!

Have fun, man, at least you're thinking

Help me with: Peeling songs from Ipod to desktop and add to library.

Tictactomm 2 #
Edmonton, AB, CA | 4 weeks, 1 day ago (3 weeks, 1 day after post)

allan_wilco wrote:
Pardon me for asking. I’m a rather dense person with little to no understanding. Do you believe that as we percieve God internally, that this somehow manifests God Himself?
As I am aware, I know that I exist both externally and internally. I do not believe that if all the people internalized my non-existance that I would no longer exist. The same said concerning God.
The imagination is a powerful tool and can be used in only one of two ways. The first way is, the imagination can be used in ratio that is complimentary and conforms to the exterrior reality. This provides uniformed consistancy and perception to existance. Secondly, the imagination can imagine things which are contrary to the harmony of exterrior and interrior reality. Thus a category called “fantasy.” It is the true nonexistance of an object in exterrior reality or the interrior reality. What makes it so, is the percieved object vaporizes upon perishing of the thought - it has no residence on the inside and it never had the chance of existing exterriorly.

Empericle theory is oxymorn (sorry). Theory is theory - it can be based on Empericle EVIDENCE, but tangible evidence, itself, does not make theory Empericle. If the theory that 1+1=2 is substantiated by tangible evidence there is no longer a form of “theory”, as it is fact. The discovery and realization of the such does not, in and of itself, make a newley discovered fact true. It was true the entire time we did not understand it or went on in ignorance of it.

Such as is God. All things that exist, which are not seen, do exist. It dosen’t mean they’re invisable, but just out of the reach of sight.

If you want to see what atheists are calling stupid and ridiclous, read the comments on You Tube: Creation ‘Science’ made easy. I proposed that the substantiation of the known universe is kept in existance by the Diatonic Scale of musical notation - and the piranhas came out to eat on that!

Have fun, man, at least you’re thinking

Pip pip. Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. Hey, I’m just trying to figure things out for myself too. My point is, external validation isn’t a requirement to one’s internal perception. I do agree with you, that blatantly ignoring the physical reality or theories that pass scientific validity is dogmatic, and inconsistent, but there are so many things yet unexplained (unexplainable?) that require speculative, internal awareness as a means of coming to terms with it. String Theory? Metaphysics? The cutting edge of speculative science is first ground in that internal awareness (just ask Eienstein).

I do believe that “faith” manifests as an internal perception, shaped by one’s own life experience. To that extent “God” does manifest to the “Believer”. However, there is no external validation of that (which some “Believers” have a hard time grasping) but that lack of external validation doesn’t de-value the internal perception (which “non-believers” will argue against too). Many millions of people in the world balance both, in fact.

You’re right though, I’m probably mis-using the term “emperical theory”. Call it emperical research instead, which is really whether or not that research and conclusion can be consistently reached by everyone who follows the same process. Ken Wilbur (I’ve just finished reading his Marriage of Sense and The Soul, which has me thinking along these lines) would say that there are three strands of deep science which can be applied to any field of human knowledge:
1) injunction (you perform an action which reveals information, such as Galileo building his telescope)
2) apprehension (you gain some insight or understanding of something, like the moons of Jupiter, looking throught Galileo’s telescope)
3) confirmation (I see the same thing you see, looking through the telescope).

This type of scientific process is applicable to both the study of the natural world (that which can be measured and validated by our 5 senses) and speculative thought (which is as close to “proof” of an internal process that it is taken, rightly so, as fact: eg: can you show me where the square root of pi is in the natural world? Of course not, but it is still a valuable construct for understanding that world).

You’re point about all things that are unknown are just waiting to be known? Talk about taking something on FAITH!

[quote allan_wilco]Pardon me for asking.  I'm a rather dense person with little to no understanding.  Do you believe that as we percieve God internally, that this somehow manifests God Himself?
  As I am aware, I know that I exist both externally and internally.  I do not believe that if all the people internalized my non-existance that I would no longer exist.  The same said concerning God.
  The imagination is a powerful tool and can be used in only one of two ways.  The first way is, the imagination can be used in ratio that is complimentary and conforms to the exterrior reality.  This provides uniformed consistancy and perception to existance.  Secondly, the imagination can imagine things which are contrary to the harmony of exterrior and interrior reality.  Thus a category called "fantasy."  It is the true nonexistance of an object in exterrior reality or the interrior reality.  What makes it so, is the percieved object vaporizes upon perishing of the thought - it has no residence on the inside and it never had the chance of existing exterriorly.

Empericle theory is oxymorn (sorry).  Theory is theory - it can be based on Empericle EVIDENCE, but tangible evidence, itself, does not make theory Empericle.  If the theory that 1+1=2 is substantiated by tangible evidence there is no longer a form of "theory", as it is fact.  The discovery and realization of the such does not, in and of itself, make a newley discovered fact true.  It was true the entire time we did not understand it or went on in ignorance of it.

Such as is God.  All things that exist, which are not seen, do exist.  It dosen't mean they're invisable, but just out of the reach of sight.

Have fun, man, at least you're thinking[/quote]

Pip pip.  Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.  Hey, I'm just trying to figure things out for myself too.  My point is, external validation isn't a requirement to one's internal perception.  I do agree with you, that blatantly ignoring the physical reality or theories that pass scientific validity is dogmatic, and inconsistent,  but there are so many things yet unexplained (unexplainable?) that require speculative, internal awareness as a means of coming to terms with it. String Theory?  Metaphysics?  The cutting edge of speculative science is first ground in that internal awareness (just ask Eienstein).

I do believe that "faith" manifests as an internal perception, shaped by one's own life experience.  To that extent "God" does manifest to the "Believer".  However, there is no external validation of that (which some "Believers" have a hard time grasping) but that lack of external validation doesn't de-value the internal perception (which "non-believers" will argue against too).  Many millions of people in the world balance both, in fact.

You're right though, I'm probably mis-using the term "emperical theory".  Call it emperical research instead, which is really whether or not that research and conclusion can be consistently reached by everyone who follows the same process.  Ken Wilbur (I've just finished reading his Marriage of Sense and The Soul, which has me thinking along these lines) would say that there are three strands of deep science which can be applied to any field of human knowledge: 
1) injunction (you perform an action which reveals information, such as Galileo building his telescope)
2) apprehension (you gain some insight or understanding of something, like the moons of Jupiter, looking throught Galileo's telescope)
3) confirmation (I see the same thing you see, looking through the telescope).

This type of scientific process is applicable to both the study of the natural world (that which can be measured and validated by our 5 senses) and speculative thought (which is as close to "proof" of an internal process that it is taken, rightly so, as fact: eg: can you show me where the square root of pi is in the natural world?  Of course not, but it is still a valuable construct for understanding that world).

You're point about all things that are unknown are just waiting to be known?  Talk about taking something on FAITH!

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PROOF AND FAITH: THE EXTERNAL AND THE INTERNAL.

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