history help: After more than 5 years of war, inferior body armor is still a scandal for US troops. - Help.com

C.M.Theisen
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Providence, RI, US

After more than 5 years of war, inferior body armor is still a scandal for US troops.

If anyone likes to follow military affairs, I encourage them to occassionaly visit this military muck-raking news and opinion site.
http://www.sftt.org/

I visit every once in a while and a current article has got my blood boiling. The Congress and Pentagon procurement bureacrats have a long and sordid history of short-changing ground troops in favor of high profile, big ticket, pork barrel projects like “Star Wars”. But denying troops the best in personal body armor is nothing if not asinine. Read this article to learn more about this scandal:
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%202007.db&c ommand=viewone&id=6

Simply putting a “Support The Troops” yellow decal on your car isn’t enough. Contact your Congress person about getting better body armor for the troops. Reference the above article if you like.

Here’s how you can confirm who represents you in Congress:
http://www.house.gov/writerep/
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact...

This open post was written 2 years, 9 months ago | V/U/S: 1,420, 13, 5 | Edit Post | Leave a reply | Report Post


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C.M.Theisen changed the tags on this post: they were "automobile, war, Blood, Yellow, Person, Database, history, information, house, Bulletproof vest" 2 years, 9 months ago.

Nowhereman offline Verified User (2 years, 10 months) Long Term User Shouts: 2 #
Bandeirante, 29, BR | 2 years, 9 months ago (13 minutes after post)

Thanks for posting this…and for the sites to respond to. Blood boiling…. and my blood pressure was fine a few minutes ago!!!!

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Qzzzz offline Verified User (3 years, 1 month) Long Term User Shouts: 2 #
Montpelier, MS, US | 2 years, 9 months ago (30 minutes after post)

This administration has failed in almost every area of warfare. Poor equipment, death notification as there are some horror stories here, war strategy, treatment of captured enemy troops, and being honest with the public about the success of the War.

Before the election the Repubicans were in denial about the public’s attitude on this War, now, Congress is in tune with the public, well, they are better than before, but Bush is still being hard-headed and stubborn.

Bush’s new strategy and commander, maybe, too late for any effect. Petraeus, new commander, if given an earlier chance, may have pulled this off. He is good, but he is inheriting a losing team and it will be very difficult to turn this thing around. Especially, with the so-called help provided by the Iraqis. Would not turn my back on one of them.

Horrible call on this situation. If the Dems cause Bush to bring them home, the Repubs will use this against them in the election. But, if the Dems do not force Bush’s hand, then, all those men that would die.

Personally, more concerned about the troops, bring them home.

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Boyrs offline Verified User (3 years, 1 month) Long Term User Shouts: 1 #
US | 2 years, 9 months ago (4 hours, 17 minutes after post)

ahhh.. i hate the gov’t but i need to force something out…
people react to ’star wars’ they dont react to ‘raising taxes for some guy over there’ ….
dragon skin is too expensive and it slows grunts down… not to mention when a fellow GI is lost we will be suppling the enemy with protection as well….

sorry, i seen the special on dragon skin and it said that

one- we (americains)dont have the rights to it’s design

two-it’s expensive

three- it’s flexible but hot and bulky, doesnt slow them down as much as it looks, but with 50+ pounds of gear in the burming desert… it’s just dead weight

fourth- they didnt explain in the article that it was stated that whether someone wearing the vest would live after being hit by one of these high-impact shells (level IV) is still unknown…

sadly, the govt wants defiante answers… not “well, it’ll save this guy but the impact from a class IV shell will shatter his ribs and throw him
about 5-10 feet through the air…”

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C.M.Theisen offline Verified User (3 years, 4 months) Long Term User Shouts: 2 #
Providence, RI, US | 2 years, 9 months ago (5 hours, 6 minutes after post)

I’m glad you wrote your reply, Boyrs. You make intelligent points worth considering. So to addres them…

One - I’m not sure the US military should care about owning the rights to a design if it is something that works. The US military should use what works - even if it’s something they don’t own the intellectual rights to.

Two - yes it is more expensive, but why should we be quibbling over the cost of basic protective gear? When it is so difficult to recruit new troops, we really need to focus on improving the survivability of the soldiers we already have. New volunteers for the infantry are not easy to come by in our society.

Three - yes you are correct. The Dragon Skin armor is hot and bulky - but so is all body armor. The kevlar vests I use to wear was also uncomfortable in the heat - but even so, I would have gladly traded up for an even hotter, heavier model if I knew it had better bullet stopping power.

Fourth - it is true that survivability is not directly addressed in these penetration tests. In part this is because nobody is assuming that body armor will make you invulnerable to damage. You definitely will be bruised, and it is possible to suffer broken bones and even internal bleeding from the kenetic force of non-penetrating bullet impact. However, the damage caused by a non-penetrating bullet impact is still preferable to the alternative. Most modern assault rifle bullets will enter a body, cavitate and punch out a tunnel through your body big enough for you to push a golf ball through. So on balance, I don’t think this is a fair reason to be critical of the Dragon Skin armor.

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Qzzzz offline Verified User (3 years, 1 month) Long Term User Shouts: 2 #
Montpelier, MS, US | 2 years, 9 months ago (18 hours, 30 minutes after post)

Thanks for correcting my poor spelling…lol..

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Boyrs offline Verified User (3 years, 1 month) Long Term User Shouts: 1 #
US | 2 years, 9 months ago (2 days, 2 hours after post)

:) intellectual arguments.. cant beat them…

1 if we steal (japan ’s i beleive) idea that will cause economical reactions and possibly war

2 everything is based on cost, even what wars we decide to get involved in… there will be less medicine and other goods that the dragon skin will replace… how can we determine what these will be? would a troop of ‘dragon skin’ operatives be better than the same troop will kevlar and a sophistacated targeting system and possably a tank?

3 dehydration isn’t fun, i almost bought it that way before, and the slower you are the more likely you’ll be hit…

4 sad as is is, a dead man only costs the gov’t so much, but a severly injured, “cant work for the rest of his life” veteren will cost a WHOLE LOT more…

i’m sorta getting stuck on the wrong side though, i fully beleive that the gov’t is capable of finding out a solution that will benifit both veiws towards this regard…

cant they make a “cheaper” dragon skin, one made outta something more cost effective that might not be as good as the true dragon skin but still be better than the current body armour?

are they going to carry this technology to tanks and aircraft? it’s the old ‘plate-mail’ style, is actually surprising that no one thought of it before now…

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C.M.Theisen offline Verified User (3 years, 4 months) Long Term User Shouts: 2 #
Providence, RI, US | 2 years, 9 months ago (2 days, 3 hours after post)

Well, here’s my rebuttal:

1 - The owners of the Dragon Skin technology are willing to sell. “Stealing” is not an issue here.

2 - I agree, cost matters in war fighting. Resources are not unlimited. Everything cannot be gold-plated. Trade-offs exist. Dragon Skin can cost anywhere from $3,000 to $5,000. But body armor is more than a luxury. Good equipment improves a soldiers morale. And soldiers do fight more aggressively and fearlessly when they think their equipment will give them an edge in surviving combat. There’s a reason why the Presidential body guards of the US Secret Service already use Dragon Skin. It makes them that much more willing to put themselves in the path of a bullet. Ultimately, I think the benfits to morale are so useful, it is worth taking the money from other parts of the Defense budget to pay for Dragon Skin. (And fat from other programs do exist. Do we really need three new advanced fighter programs when our current F-15s are more than a match for any enemy? Are the billions for “Star Wars” defense actually a good investment?)

3 - Your point about dehydration is well taken. The effect of heat is nothing to joke about. I was in Germany (which is a lot less hot than Iraq) and I remember being useless and gasping when forced to run in my full bio-chemical protective suit and mask. It’s my understanding that in Vietnam, US soldiers would avoid wearing helmets and flak vests if they could. Protection be damned, it was hot and they carried 100 lbs. of gear on their backs. But combat in Iraq is primarily urban combat. Generally soldiers on patrol are easily resupplied by vehicle and are not weighed down with combat packs like in Vietnam. I think the calculation under these conditions is that an armored vest is worth wearing. So it’s not like we are buying expensive equipment that soldiers will quietly refuse to use in Iraq.

4 - So we want a cost-benefit analysis? Well, in that case, I think we should think of the $5,000 Dragon skin as an insurance policy. It helps guarantee that a soldier will complete their enlistment and “pay back” the value of all their very expensive training. My own security cleareance alone represented a $20,000 gamble from the Army that they would have an option on getting at least 8 years of service from me. And if I had died early? Dead soldiers are expensive. I was eligible for a SGLI $100,000 life insurance benefit (which I increased to $200K). In addition, the Army would have lost the value of my practical real-world experience: veterans are much more useful than green soldiers.

Thanks for the debate…

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C.M.Theisen offline Verified User (3 years, 4 months) Long Term User Shouts: 2 #
Providence, RI, US | 2 years, 9 months ago (2 days, 3 hours after post)

Oops. Baddly designed body armor is worse than having no armor. The UK is having big troubles with their new Osprey Improved Combat Body Armour. It’s so bulky, troops actually try to take it off prior to combat.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live…

Luckily, I haven’t heard anyone complain about Dragon Skin being like this. The British armor uses solid ceramic plates, not the flexible scales of Dragon Skin.

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eichelherr offline Verified User (2 years, 9 months) Long Term User Shouts: 0 #
Vancouver, BC, CA | 2 years, 9 months ago (4 days, 13 hours after post)

hey im from canada, i wish my govt had the balls to invade iraq. then again ontario and quebec have the most votes.. and their complete idiots neways…. go ALberta and BC!!

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Boyrs offline Verified User (3 years, 1 month) Long Term User Shouts: 1 #
US | 2 years, 9 months ago (1 week after post)

sorry, i do have response but need to post it when i got time to get into detial…

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Boyrs offline Verified User (3 years, 1 month) Long Term User Shouts: 1 #
US | 2 years, 9 months ago (1 week, 1 day after post)

1 selling the rights will just up the cost and we will owe someone a favor…

2 i agree with morale, but there are other ways to raise it…
a smart trooper realizes he can depend on his equipment alone for survival… team work and logical thinking are the best defense, my opinion ’bout body armour is that it gives the troops reason to slack up on thier skills as a fighter… the best fighters wouldn’t need the body armour slowing them down and also the fact that the armour only covers the chest leaves no discussion about snipers, bombs, rpg’s and so on…
true, i believe that some programs are sucking more resource than needed, but if the gov’t was to do this, you can count on them taking the funds from the wrong programs and leaving programs like the “star wars” alone (due to high dollar investers wanting to get their money’s worth…)

3 yes but like i stated, how many die from shots to the chest? quite a few i’d imagine but the numbers of others (like bombs, headshots, limb shots) is probably up there as well… each time a guy dies with a vest on, that’s one more for the enemy… i think the major part of morale and enlistment problems is due to the fact that the war is not taken seriously, and when it is, people are usually agaisnt it… ” a man will die fighting with a butterknife if he believes in the cause..”

4 but truth be told, are you positive your family would have gotten the full benefit? i know they would recieve money (most likely not in a lump sum) but would they be required to pay taxes on it? you’re telling me the same gov’t that is neglecting thier troops in the far east is going to pay out on someone who’s not around to make sure they hold up their end of the bargin? not tring to be mean, i just dont trust the gov’t farther than i can spit…

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