Control help: How can we solve the world’s population crisis without becoming fascists? - Help.com

Disturbing.

I’m confused..
The issue here is controlling population … But then you mention racial cleansing?
That’s a totally different issue.
If the population crisis is the problem….I don’t see how racial cleansing fits in with the argument. Surely attempts to control population would apply to all races.
…….Unless I’m missing something here?

are these the world’s migration problems you are referring to?
they are caused from reasons other than population overgrowth.
the world is big enough.

I’ve always thought people should be made take an exam before they have children.

If your child is running up and down a plane aisle, high as a crack-head on hoolahoops do you:

A. Pretend to be asleep so people think he’s somebody elses kid.

B. Slip a Valium in his sippy cup.

C. Don’t feed your kids sugar on planes.

colinreamusi wrote:
I know. Doesn’t bode well for the future does it?

Avoiding being a fascist is quite easy OP. That you think it isn’t… disturbing.

well if politicians would grow a spine and be prepared to change somethings so our processes became more efficient and western people made do with less (which really wouldn’t be that hard) then the world could carry a significantly higher population. The trick is a whole lot of things in the world are inefficient or flawed or downright idiotic.

Fortunately we’re likely to have some good big wars to thin out the population a bit when resources continue to decline due to idiotic process decisions and that will help. And I know that sounds really bad but its probably what will happen.

first of all, if you want cultural balance, instead of limiting birth, the nations need to give better support for children - and HAVE MORE BABIES. not less. for locals. (just so you know, statistically a culture with less than 1.8 children per family birth rate is destined to extinct. the rate in most europe is around 1.4 children per family, while the immigrants are on an average of - pay attention - 8 children per family. do the math, and consider that this process started around 15 years ago.)

so you are lacking a lot of information in your discussion which seemingly leads you to false conclusions, and to ask irrelevant questions.
i spend a lot of time talking about these things with my father, and so far on the past 10 years, we foreseen most of the world’s current occurrences and problems - many years ahead when those speculations may have seemed hallucinations at their times.

but i will not point at what you analyze, rather than give you one single guideline:

the question that you should be asking in the end, is what can **I** do about it. as a person. how do i act differently, what should i prepare myself for, and how? (”I” is you, with yourself alone) — and then on the second level - how can i make a change - if the smallest - in my close environment? (not by changing people, but by acting differently myself, or raising specific subjects for discussion, by writing to the right people in the right places at the right time with the right subjects.)
that is, if you want things to change. or you just want to go with the flow, speculate and wait to see what happens…?

and for dessert, a quote:
“going to fix the world… but did you fix yourself?”

colinreamusi wrote:
Interesting responses. This question has come from me speaking to a very good friend and trying to put the world to rights. Whenever we talk about how to solve some of the big problems we are likely to face in the future, generally it comes down to the world’s resources and at the rate we are going, it is unsustainable. We then talked about population and education alongside controlling conception being a good way to keep ourselves in check. However, the idea of only being allowed a certain amount of children seems to have people react as if their rights are being infringed and to the Western world is considered abhorent. But how else are we to face the future with any possibility of survival. When I meantioned ‘racial cleansing’ I meant it in reference to wars that break out between nations for resources and certainly wasn’t suggesting I agree with it - was just wondering how we can avoid it unless we keep ourselves regulated. Didn’t mean to cause offence. Sorry if I did. I know it’s a dark subject, but surely we will head this way until we start to think about our future seriously? I think Agent Smith has got what I meant.

Agent Smith wrote:
well if politicians would grow a spine and be prepared to change somethings so our processes became more efficient and western people made do with less (which really wouldn’t be that hard) then the world could carry a significantly higher population. The trick is a whole lot of things in the world are inefficient or flawed or downright idiotic.

Fortunately we’re likely to have some good big wars to thin out the population a bit when resources continue to decline due to idiotic process decisions and that will help. And I know that sounds really bad but its probably what will happen.

Was just trying to think of a way we could deal with this issue before we get to some “good old wars”. Any thoughts?

You didn’t cause me any offence at all, don’t worry. I was just curious as to how this fitted in with your post.
:-)

@colinreamusi
you are right, forgive me.
(just to show me again that i still have a lot to fix in myself yet :)

i meant to point out that demographic problem, and yes it is worldwide.

the economical imbalance between countries cause people from the “weaker” countries to migrate, looking for work. sometimes it is just because of greed, sometimes its the quality of life… or the known more sad reasons of war, depression, neglection and poorness.

then they try to settle, using holes in the law, or infiltrating from “temporary” migration camps. then they happened to stay long enough to get citizenship.
often, due to cultural differences and habits, they bring more babies. a lot more.
(i guess its an instinct of survival. the more the country is “developed” the less babies people bring and the later in their lives they bring them. this can be caused by different values, like - i have a career to invest in, i am not done enjoying life, i can’t be bothered to have a baby right now, i am too busy. and just for the fun of it you can watch a funny film called “idiocraty” or something like that.)

what happened in the following years to the above, is that these foreign populations grew out to be more than considerable minorities. they have their rights like all humans should - but at what costs?

they are willing to work in much lower wages (that are a disgrace), and in harder jobs that are less demanding on requirements. that “steals” work from a lot of the weak population and a lot from the medium level too.
thus - causing unemployment. bitterness in both cultures.

another thing is like i said is cultural , the former-immigrants wish to preserve their cultural habits, and often it reaches a level that the balance is disturbed. different clothing, different building, different language… seem to “take over the streets”. the “locals” feel their culture is taken away from them too. they don’t feel at home in “their own” country.
then interesting things happen.
the governments start to react:
some make rougher immigration rules, and ban people out… + to bitterness
some make try to ban specific cultural habits… + to bitterness
some say - let them be and do what they want.. this causes original residents leave cities and areas which include large populations of those former immigrants because they feel uncomfortable. + to bitterness. then these areas become neglected, the rent drops, investors leave, streets cease to be maintained properly, and the whole place becomes a poor dump. which makes the “new” residents bitter also.

children that are second or even third generation in the country, feel it is their own, and become angry when they are treated differently. be it a positive or a negative incrimination.

etc…etc… until it all explodes on all ends.
from economical crisis to social crisis to world crisis.

and all that is just from immigration.
but there are a lot more things that happen and everything adds sticks to the fire….

dependency on production from the far east… equivalently to the increasing life quality in the far east… causes dramatic breakdowns on western economies…
on other ends, the social and economical gaps grow and hardens… in the far east too… and everywhere else…

the arab spring…
bureaucracy straying decision makers away from the field…
nuclear fear…
countries criticizing and interfering in other nation’s but not looking in themselves…
countries do not interfere where they should…
money is centered in too few pockets…
wages drop, rents jump…
and more and more and more and more…
but lets take it one at a time.

@colinreamusi
you should really see idiocraty, you will love it.

anyway, i’ll stray from the demographic issue for a little while to point at some solutions: there is are some ways to overcome unemployment and social security abuse.

and it is all based on local economy development (LED), and the idea behind it.
there are a few leading concepts in this that i will try to explain.

first: money that is stays where it is spent (generally). for example, if you spent a $ at the grocery store in your town (lets call it moka), the store owner use that $ to cut his hair in the nearby barber, and the barber in it’s turn use that same $ to pay the babysitter, which in her turn use that same $ to buy at the grocery store, etc etc… you get the picture.

however that money is diminished more quickly if you buy in a big chain of a brand.
why? because it’s owners doesn’t live in moka. he lives in america. he will not buy at the local grocery store. the seller might be local, but she only get a ridiculously small portion of that $.

this is of course not the whole picture, there are other stuff involved like taxes.
but they are irrelevant to the concept.

second:
one big business can support much less jobs than a lot of small businesses. even if numerically it offers more. why?
as you said earlier, the “stronger” populations are much more selective in the matter of employment, they need the verity that one big business can’t offer.
another thing is, considering the competition with products from the far east, the factories cannot afford considerable salaries, which in turn makes productive industries less appealing to higher societies, and more appealing to the weaker levels who don’t mind do work hard and be paid much less.
this explodes when the big factories can no longer compete with imported goods. then the masses are fired, can’t find another job - after working in the factory their whole life - and are bitter and angry and poor, and add to the burden of the rest of society.
now if this was just in one factory, no big deal.
but over the years, a lot of the western society became **non productive**. and mostly offer services. problem is, you can’t eat services.

connect the two above and you can imagine the world’s wealth flowing uncontrollably to the far east.

anyway, back to LED.
so, small business not only offer a bigger verity of jobs and can pay more to it’s employees, if one business goes down, which happens, it doesn’t **** up the entire town.
also, small businesses, when concentrated, offer much more verity for the consumers, thus generating a flow of people and create synergy on each other. (this is reflected by the way by people now-a-days preferring to go shopping in the streets instead of in malls, which increasingly offer more of the same brands. it might not be so in cold countries, or, well it differs from place to place but the basics are the same.)

problem is, small business have a hard time competing with chains. they do not have the marketing abilities, and some lack knowledge in retail, and some are stuck 30 years back.
moreover, a lot of city centers have been neglected, or scattered. thus reducing the synergy and the competitiveness against the big boxes.

things that can be done:
on personal level: buy in small businesses and franchisees.
on government level: instead of putting more money to social security, it should go to working grants. which means: you work, even a little, you get completion to your social security. if you are proved to be totally incapable of working, you are still supported normally.
or, another approach: small business owners with less than 3 workers, will get salary completion to their employees. meaning they can pay them less, which means they can hire more, and that the employees will get the same amount of money - if not more. part from the employer and part from the government.
so now if i am a small office, it would not be much more expansive for me to hire two secretaries instead of one. so a lot more jobs will be open on a verity of jobs, the government will spend less money on social security for those people that are now working and being productive, and those people would actually get more money than they would normally on either option. having more workers would allow those businesses to grow… etc….

on the local authority level:
they need to concentrate all the municipal services in one accessible center, and concentrate all the businesses in the same place. this requires often redesigning, rebuilding, or renewing these centers.

on the business level: together with the authority, and with each other, to create an independent voluntary cooperative management for commercial streets and open centers, that would allow them to compete in marketing and take care of the center’s maintenance on their own - including adding content, events, and managing the business mix to have a better synergy.
each business must then invest in it’s own interior to improve the way all the center feels and eventually, to attract consumers to buy locally.
to keep the money in the same place as much as it is possible.

there is more to LED, but i’ll leave it at that for now.

its generally understood that better educated people tend to have less children. im not talking about going from a college graduate to a phd but rather someone from a first world country that has 2-3 kids vs a third world country where it is common to have 10-20 kids despite lacking the resources to handle them all. so i would say education.