work help: Most of the staff in my office are devout Muslim ( like my boss and the owner of the firm). - Help.com

Your problem is your own anxiety in facing opinions that do not square with your own.

You seem to have a very big need to know what is right and to have everyone around you subscribe to the same viewpoint

I would strongly suggest here that you don’t waste your time and energy being such a perfectionist and trying to control the world around you to make yourself feel better…. that IS what you are trying to do… you are trying to make everyone agree with your viewpoint so that you don’t feel anxiety and frustration.

You would be a lot smarter to learn how to manage your frustration and anxiety instead and value the people around you as PEOPLE. They do not exist to make YOU feel smart and happy and relaxed. They exist as people with value in their own right.

If you reach out to them as people, you can enjoy relationships with them even though you differ strongly in some opinions. Seek out what you have in common… don’t focus on the things you disagree on.

linuxya wrote:
Your problem is your own anxiety in facing opinions that do not square with your own.

Thanks for the reply. I do disagree however, the problem is I work with people who refuse to look at evidence and evaluate concepts.
If someone believes that 911 was a conspiracy, that’s fine, if I’m interested enough I will ask why they believe that, and what information brought them to their conclusions. But that is not possible here. There is a stone-wall of belief. Any question or query is taken with offence, so I don’t even know why they believe what they believe.
This is fine in a situation you can walk away from, but I’m trapped in a room with these people all day, and for us to get along, I basically either have to keep my mouth shut, or just agree with whatever they say.

Agree to disagree, can you at least accept that?

moonlightsupper wrote:
Agree to disagree, can you at least accept that?

The point is that I am not allowed to disagree with them without causing major offence and risking my job.

Well, there you have it. Your choice.

Rosabella wrote:
Well, there you have it. Your choice.

Gee, suddenly everything is much clearer now, thanks.

I’m finding it hard to link the fact you work with a lot of Muslims to the fact that global warming is a scam. Could you join the dots?

thecentraladdres wrote:

moonlightsupper wrote:
Agree to disagree, can you at least accept that?

The point is that I am not allowed to disagree with them without causing major offence and risking my job.

I think you are complicating this unnecessarily. No one can force you to change your opinion about anything. If you have to, and for the sake of your job just have no opinion. Keep the peace.

However, if as Linuxya said
“Your problem is your own anxiety in facing opinions that do not square with your own.

You seem to have a very big need to know what is right and to have everyone around you subscribe to the same viewpoint”

Then no amount of advice here will change things for you.
Unless ofcourse you want us to simply agree with you? Sorry, but I really think thats what you want.

Btw I deal with serious sh*t at work,if you want to go round dissing your work colleagies faith expect the sack. And it won’t be a conspiracey. It’ll be right there in your contract.

Tymbus wrote:
Btw I deal with serious sh*t at work,if you want to go round dissing your work colleagies faith expect the sack. And it won’t be a conspiracey. It’ll be right there in your contract.

Read my OP again you seem to misinterpret what I’m saying. I’m not “dissing” faith.
I am forced to agree with BS all day because I am not aloud to speak out, that is me being forced to change my opinions and views or stay silent, or agree with ideas I can prove are demonstrably false.

hope your serious sh*t works out for you Tymbus.

This life experience is trying to reveal to you something about yourself that you need to confront and change.

The title of your post stresses “Muslim” ( like my boss and the owner of the firm)” One has to wonder why is that relevant to you having to “being forced to change my opinions” ? Just leave if you don’t like it there, you can’t tell me they are forcingyo to stay there too?

No one stops you from saying, ‘that’s not my view’.

I did read your post. It struck me as a list of internet fed theories. Evolution is a theory, with evidence for it, as are the rest of your list of ‘claims’.

You may be a nice guy in life but your post just reads like another white single male white collar worker attracted to the view that a conspiracey is working against them. Oh but with Christian over tones.

thecentraladdres wrote:
I am forced to agree with BS all day because I am not aloud to speak out, that is me being forced to change my opinions and views or stay silent, or agree with ideas I can prove are demonstrably false.

Who is forcing you to work in that environment?

Sorry for the delay, I’ve just got home, I’m a little disappointed by the above replies and assumptions.

I will respond to all the above points in order, after a clarification;

My colleagues and I work in a team which decides how best to distribute “legal aid” to client’s who are unable to fund their own legal cases.
We are employed to gage the trustworthiness of the Client, establish the facts of individual cases, and use our judgement and intuition to try best allocate the funds.

Because of the type of work we deal with, we are often presented with clients holding a history of anti-social behaviour, drug use and mental health problems. So when discussing the merits of individuals, it is inevitable that we also discuss our ethics. Here is the problem;

I try to act as a “Consequentialist”, which means I make decisions based on the probability of what will happen when making that decision.
my colleagues, make their decisions based on strict religious doctrine.

…..

Cell wrote:
It is only your opinion that their opinions are false.

That may be so, but I am willing to disclose the though processes that create
these opinions, and I am willing to update my beliefs based on new evidence.

Tymbus wrote:
your post just reads like another white single male white collar worker Oh but with Christian over tones.

Well, my apologies for not communication my position clearly enough.

I referenced Islam because that is specifically the religion and belief system
with which these people are defending their ideas.

As for; white,Single, Male, and white collar.

I am; Mixed race, my relationship status is irrelevant, as is my gender, and I already stated I work in an office which can be classified as “white collar” if you chose to do so.

Anonymous wrote:
This life experience is trying to reveal to you something

I don’t believe “life experience” has a volition but I’m quite ready to hear more about it should you wish to elaborate.

Anonymous wrote:

The title of your post stresses “Muslim” One has to wonder why is that relevant

Because I wanted to speak with somebody who had experience of this particular group of people, obviously.

Grim_Hardcastle wrote:
Who is forcing you to work in that environment?

The recession, my rent payments, and the lack of other job offers.

People make decisions based on their belief–and value–systems. You do it, and your co-workers do it. My faith stresses mercy, forgiveness, compassion and second chances. I’ve seen how God can transform people’s lives.

But I’ve been wrong about some people, and undoubtedly you’ve been wrong about some people, too.

You cannot ask your Muslim associates to divorce themselves from their beliefs, or from their religion. And, no, they should not impose their religion on anyone else, any more than you should impose your own “religion” on anyone else.

But the mind is, for all practical purposes, a “black box.” It is ludicrous to imagine that any of us could set aside all of our values and beliefs in making a decision. We may think we can do it–but if so, we are simply fooling ourselves!

chev.jame wrote:
People make decisions based on their belief–and value–systems. You do it, and your co-workers do it. My faith stresses mercy, forgiveness, compassion and second chances. I’ve seen how God can transform people’s lives.

But I’ve been wrong about some people, and undoubtedly you’ve been wrong about some people, too.

You cannot ask your Muslim associates to divorce themselves from their beliefs, or from their religion. And, no, they should not impose their religion on anyone else, any more than you should impose your own “religion” on anyone else.

But the mind is, for all practical purposes, a “black box.” It is ludicrous to imagine that any of us could set aside all of our values and beliefs in making a decision. We may think we can do it–but if so, we are simply fooling ourselves!

Thank you for your post. I just don’t see how I can help people under these conditions.
I try to lay my cards out on the table, but they find it offensive. I honestly try to accept everybody for who they are. I suppose in essence, in my opinion, they judge people. They pass judgement and deny people help because of rules that I don’t understand. I ask them to explain why, so I can see it from their perspective, but they find it offensive, and I suspect, some of them don’t even know why. They just know the Rule, not the Reason, and if I don’t have a reason to do something - I’ve got nothing to go on.

I honestly believe that in this world the outcomes of my group are failing the people who need us most.

Cell wrote:
Dude, you’re judging their beliefs as false. You totally judge people. You just like your judgements better.

Yeah of course! but so are they. The difference is they can explain it away but I can’t because it’s offensive to them, and they are in charge.
And at the end of the day, as I said, I try to put it all aside and make rational choices - not beliefs - Facts and choices about facts - if we disagree on a fact then at least one of us is wrong.
You shouldn’t bring mystical beliefs into a sensible discussion about who gets sorted.

Are you saying that your colleagues are not abiding by codes of ethics in making their decisions about who does and who doesn’t qualify for legal aid?

“I try to act as a “Consequentialist”, which means I make decisions based on the probability of what will happen when making that decision.
my colleagues, make their decisions based on strict religious doctrine.

”

I like to think that one’s beliefs and worldview can have practical implications — that if you improve your beliefs you can better cope with your world. Then if you want to improve other people’s beliefs so they can cope, that may also be possible.

mumstheword wrote:
Are you saying that your colleagues are not abiding by codes of ethics in making their decisions about who does and who doesn’t qualify for legal aid?

“

Yes, informally they are.

mindhealer wrote:
that if you improve your beliefs you can better cope with your world. Then if you want to improve other people’s beliefs so they can cope, that may also be possible.

Yes, if by improve you mean “make more accurate”. When we need to fix a car or build a house we don’t talk about our beliefs about car fixing and house building. We talk about how to build houses, what tools we use, and what process brings the best outcome.

Just because we are talking about ethics doesn’t mean everybody’s opinion is valid just because they have one. If you decide to fix a car using homeopathy instead of a tool kit they you’re stupid as well as wrong.

Ok well first I’d like to apologise to some extent because your description of your job makes you sound much more reasonable than your original post and it is clear that you are involved in a serious situation with serious outcomes. i do still wonder where your slightly bonkers list of facts (esp. on global warming) came from. I am guessing that it was pent up anger and frustration. But here’s the thing: you try to present yourself as making rational decisions while others make faith based decisions, yet your post does not suggest you operate on an entirely rational model of the world.If your colleagues are genuinely acting unprofessionally then you surely have a moral obligation to report this. But you do give the impression that you may be employing subjective faith based criteria that you yourself are not admiting to.

Tymbus wrote:
you do give the impression that you may be employing subjective faith based criteria that you yourself are not admiting to.

I’m keen to know what exactly causes you to think this. It is definitely not how I interpret my behaviour.

[quote Tymbus]i do still wonder where your slightly bonkers list of facts (esp. on global warming) came from.

That list is the consensus of the team I work with, and the exact opposite of my world-view. I was highlighting how difficult it is for me to reason with the group considering their extreme beliefs and their unwillingness to update their beliefs with new information.

When you are at work, just do your job. Neither your nor their opinions on political or religious issues matter to the work. If they are having conversations that you can’t relate to, either go to your work area and just do your work, or refocus the conversation to something relevant to what you are paid to do. You are all cheating your employer if you are spending your work days discussing religion and politics.

Mariam* wrote:
When you are at work, just do your job.

If you read my replies fully you will see that this is my job.

Mariam* wrote:
Neither your nor their opinions on political or religious issues matter to the work.

Well, what people actually believe doesn’t matter much to me, it’s the process we are using to come to the decisions that matter - Their decisions seem to be wrapped up in religious belief - and for me to argue against it is to completely attack their world-view. All I was asking for is for sombody with similar experience to explain how they came to reach a mutual understanding in such a situation.

Muslims DON’T believe in Jesus.

deadboy9 wrote:
Muslims DON’T believe in Jesus.

Yes they do. They believe he was born of a virgin, taken up to heaven after his attempted crucifixion, and will return before the day of judgement. We just don’t believe that God mates/procreates.

thecentraladdres wrote:
If you read my replies fully you will see that this is my job.

It is your job to debate religion and politics with your colleagues? Who in their right mind would pay for that?

As for their decisions based on their beliefs, if they are behaving unprofessionally, report them to your supervisor. Otherwise, you can present verifiable facts (not your opinions, as put forth in your original post) where their views contradict justice. Better still, study their religious texts and find ways to use their own beliefs to support your arguments.

Mariam* wrote:
It is your job to debate religion and politics with your colleagues? Who in their right mind would pay for that?

I’ve already explained this, they base their decision on ideas which support their religion and politics - they do not rely on empirical evidence - which they should!

Mariam* wrote:
if they are behaving unprofessionally, report them to your supervisor.

They are my supervisors.

Mariam* wrote:
study their religious texts

I have done this, to no avail. There is no sound logical basis for morality in their text.

Mariam* wrote:
find ways to use their own beliefs to support your arguments.

I couldn’t do this as I find it intellectually dishonest.

Then quit. Work somewhere else where people are more like you. Easy answer, and probably the one you wanted to hear.

Mariam* wrote:
Then quit. Work somewhere else where people are more like you.

Do you really think that was worth saying, I have already outlined my situation.

Mariam* wrote:
Easy answer, and probably the one you wanted to hear.

yet another example of people telling me, “what I probably want” or mean. I guess asking questions is harder than making throw-away statements about someone’s motives.

Mariam* wrote:

deadboy9 wrote:
Muslims DON’T believe in Jesus.

Yes they do. They believe he was born of a virgin, taken up to heaven after his attempted crucifixion, and will return before the day of judgement. We just don’t believe that God mates/procreates.

thecentraladdres wrote:
If you read my replies fully you will see that this is my job.

It is your job to debate religion and politics with your colleagues? Who in their right mind would pay for that?

As for their decisions based on their beliefs, if they are behaving unprofessionally, report them to your supervisor. Otherwise, you can present verifiable facts (not your opinions, as put forth in your original post) where their views contradict justice. Better still, study their religious texts and find ways to use their own beliefs to support your arguments.

Really? I though they only believed in that muhammad guy. My mistake then.

to be honest, everyone has a different opinion according to how they are raised, belief structure, ideas… who they think tells them the truth as opposed who they think is full of garbage. You have your belief structure around opinions that are very popular right now, global warming, religion, conspirisy theory. And you are right in one sense, whether you believe for or against such matters will change your entire attitude and decision making.

For example, if you think global warming is hogwash you won’t care about recycling. If you are a global warming fanatic, that will tic you right off when you see someone waste say, a syrofoam cup. Because it matters to you and not to them, this will be a very hard thing for you to live with.

Because you work with people you don’t agree with on such basic terms and it causing so much contention at work, I have to agree with Mariam on this point and say if you cant come to a compromise while at work, you should find somewhere else to work. If only for your own stress level.

Meanwhile realize that every idea you have isn’t something written in stone as right, that there are contrasting theories that have come to light. Governments have been found to be lying about so many things in the past years and there is a feeling of distrust in people to any story they come up with these days.

graceconnie0 wrote:
realize that every idea you have isn’t something written in stone

That’s my Point!! try telling that to my team! they won’t even consider the idea that they might be wrong.

it’s like me saying;

2 + 2 = 58 and when you ask me to show my working out, I refuse and tell you that the answer is a FACT.

you get out an abacus to explain why you feel the answer is incorrect.

“I don’t believe in abacuses” is my response.

You ask me why I don’t believe in abacuses, and begin to explain to me the logic of mathematics.

“Don’t bother”, I reply “everyone is entitled to their own opinion”.

But here is the thing… what you are talking about having arguments about are not as simple as 2+2=58. If it were, it would be easy.

But the issues you are raising are ones that are complete opposing belief structures, which cannot come to terms with each other.

For example: creation vrs evolution. On one side of the coin, you say everything was created by god and he created man in his image and put him in charge of the earth. That creates and entire belief structure that says we are in charge of the earth.

evolution says science proved we are only one phase of millions of years of evolution and are just a dominant species for a small while. This creates an entire different belief structure, one that says man isn’t very important and is just another animal.

Because of this belief structure is why there cannot be common ground between you.

I would say respect others beliefs just as they would respect yours.. If you’re an atheist, then you will obviously have a different point of view than say theists… You have the right to express your opinions if they’re trying to bother you about their own… I personally wouldn’t argue back unless they ask what i thought of it or for debate, different point of view… I would respect other’s beliefs even if I thought they were false in my mind just to avoid time wasted trying to change another’s mind and avoid conflict on such touchy subjects…

graceconnie0 wrote:
the issues you are raising are ones that are complete opposing belief structures,

A belief structure is a map of reality that exists inside our minds. Our beliefs are “models” of how we think the world works.
If we compare a model in our mind to something in reality, and it matches, we say the model is “True”. There are not different truths for different people, there is just reality, and reality doesn’t care what we think we know. So inevitably, at least one of our structures is incorrect.

If you cannot explain how morality works, how is somebody going to go around classifying things as “moral” or “immoral”, perhaps there is no completely correct answer, but we only find out if we make decisions, observe what happens in reality, and adjust our beliefs accordingly.

when people say things like “I would never kill another person” or, “I believe it’s always right to tell the truth”, it often tells me those people aren’t really in touch with reality.

That’s how I know I’m not just dealing with an opposing world view, I’m dealing with people who just swallowed a load of ideas and never really thought about what they mean in reality. At least I’m building my own structure instead of buying one ready built and claiming it do be unshakable.

Living by poorly conceived rules, and illogical ideas does not help to alter reality for the good.

thecentraladdres wrote:

Tymbus wrote:
Btw I deal with serious sh*t at work,if you want to go round dissing your work colleagies faith expect the sack. And it won’t be a conspiracey. It’ll be right there in your contract.

Read my OP again you seem to misinterpret what I’m saying. I’m not “dissing” faith.
I am forced to agree with BS all day because I am not aloud to speak out, that is me being forced to change my opinions and views or stay silent, or agree with ideas I can prove are demonstrably false.

hope your serious sh*t works out for you Tymbus.

no, your picking a stupid *** argument based on your views of life, which you don’t need to discuss. Just accept they think that way and bloody move on.

it’s true. people believe what they want to believe, even if facts are against them. it’s only during moments of extreme duress where people actually change their model of the world. it is what it is. ideology = idiotism.

to the OP: in a field of white sheep, the black one is cool.

it’s more fun to be the vigilante than the police.

I think I understand your situation. You’rr saying that you work in an office with people whose opinions you take exception to, yet you cannot challenge them to rationally explain why they hold such opinions without their emotions getting in the way.

The truth is certain individuals are incapable of rationally and calmly discussing matters with someone whose opinions do not coincide with theirs. In such circumstances, it would be best to simply be understanding and avoid trying to engage them in debate.

Best bet as it’s been said… leave politics and religion ALONE in the work place. Those 2 things can break up a happy home, a best friendship, and anything else really. It shouldn’t, but it happens quite often now a days so is best to be avoided. If you can’t avoid the discussions or ignore them, find a new job. One where they don’t talk about that stuff.

May I ask .. are you in UK thecentral?

Blank !

i myself am a muslim, and although i have a strong belief in God, i too would agree with u the opinion are not always facts. i still question anything that is thrown at me, even religious things… i’ve found this makes my faith grow stronger as like to bottom of everything. however, i see your associates are coming from …they just have such a strong belief in everything their religion says that they just think everything it says is right.

try not take it to offence, im sure they dont have anything against you, i think to be fair, they should except the fact that you think differently, and respect that…. its not a very islamic thing to do… to be disrespectful and arrogant etc. , they shouldnt be forcing their opinion on you, thats not allowed…. if anything they can just explain it to you, and leave you to believe what you like. Their only Islamic duty, is to explain their religion to you if a time rises where there is conflict etc., not force it on you.
hope what im saying made sense, hope i helped

anyway, its true, talkign about politics or religion should be avoided, especially if it brings so much trouble at work ezpecially…. i think at work people should keep things proffessional

I don’t know whether you’ve grown to tired of phenomenally defending yourself against the crowd of people who believes “everybody’s opinion is right” to read this, but I just wanted to say that I understand where you are coming from. There is such a thing as reality, and I’ve gotten angry because other people don’t seem to observe the harm that closed minds with opinions divorced from reality can cause. You too seem to have seen this in your work. I can only offer you possible relief by saying that you seem to have been vitally important to your clients and possibly if it hadn’t been for you and your ethics many of them would have been worse off. If you believe in what you are doing, then you owe yourself the strength to keep at the job.

You know I’m Christian and I had a few Muslim men share their beliefs with me. It was great to learn about them. I can’t say I agreed with everything, but they had many points that I never even thought about. Talking with them only helped me better understand what I believe and why. I also held my tongue while talking to them because you are right I don’t want to offend anyone just like you wouldn’t want to. Hey and there’s nothing wrong with just listening even if you don’t agree at all, but I would probably quit having those conversations if they didn’t give me the same respect, but that’s just me. I would worry more about my job than someone who doesn’t know how to be less biased.

Wow I totally misread your original post. Groviling apologies for taking up help space.

Tempted as I was to direct you to the appropriate legal commission and all that..

I decided I would probably be wasting my time.

http://help.com/post/539398-what-can-…

>>> Long delay, weekend away from computer.

MarlinTheFish wrote:
it’s true. people believe what they want to believe, even if facts are against them. it’s only during moments of extreme duress where people actually change their model of the world.

I agree, or when faced with an undeniable reality. Thanks.

verge wrote:
There is such a thing as reality, and I’ve gotten angry because other people don’t seem to observe the harm that closed minds with opinions divorced from reality can cause.

Yes :) ,Yes, yes and yes again. Thank you.

Tymbus wrote:
Wow I totally misread your original post. Groviling apologies for taking up help space.

No Problem, Thank you.

mumstheword wrote:
May I ask .. are you in UK thecentral?

North England. South Yorkshire.

mumstheword wrote:
Tempted as I was to direct you to the appropriate legal commission and all that..

I decided I would probably be wasting my time.

http://help.com/post/539398-what-can-…

Forgive me, I was joking - I couldn’t think of a funny way to advertise my real job. (I can post verification if you wish).
also, I am familiar with the legal complaints process but they would not be able to help in this instance.

apologies if I missed any other responses.