DarkSnow's shout trail with ⓘⓝⓚ - Help.com

…

Thank you for at least respecting THAT much.

I will keep silence gladly. Koneshno.

I have had enough of talking with you. First you treat people like their problems don’t matter then you act as if they don’t even deserve respect. Do not shout me again.

Why do you keep twisting my words, or at the least, assuming such bad things about what I’m saying? Where is this confusion coming from? Why do you feel it okay to insult me so? I would give my life for such people…
I merely questioned you about what groups and support you think would be good to make such people feel included as well.

Eh… But forget it. Such things are beyond discussing with you.

personally…. i think religion is popular today because the big guys, i.e. the church and state, LOVE and reap the benefits, while covering their greedy tracks by saying “the meek shall inherit the earth” thus shutting up those who suffer because of the church and state being greedy selfish bastards more concerned with the karat of their silver platters than the lives of the “little people.”

what do you mean exactly by tangible/? as in… you imagine it’s what is said and decide it’s god?

so, you chose your religion our of all the others because it benefits you the most? isnt that a bit… opposite of the idea of your religion? jesus saying give all your goods away to others etc etc? and…. yeah the bible is chalk full of baby bashing, woman raping, and petty vanity bringing on bear attacks. i agree with you on the hypocritical bit…

YIKES YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH EIGHTH GRADERS???? you poor thing!!! should i send you chocolate and counselling vouchers?? or a prepaid holiday? (i wish i could afford that… cancun is calling my name)

i always feel a bit sad when i take a life, fishing or hunting. but i accept that it is natural and neccesary. and i strongly believe that if you cant accept what is nourishing you, you have no right to eat it. i have way more appreciation for my meat when i know what was sacrificed for it. but, to each their own, we all handle things diferently and i have a lot of respect for your respect of life.

hope your leave of absence here is good for you and that you enjoy whatever it is you’re doing, have a wonderufl time and i’ll talk at ya later! :)

If I was fabricating a religion, I’d make it very straightfoward and appealing. Give me money, and God will make things good for you =P Actually, some people claim things like that. It’s sad. As it is, I’d agree that it’s complicated at times. But there are patterns, and God made it clear fairly early on that something was coming to make a difference. For example, at one point all of the people in Israel had to kill a sacrificial lamb to cover their sins so that God wouldn’t have to take out justice on them. But… they had to do that every year or else. It’s unsustainable, but it paved the way for the idea that there had to be a way to make things good forever between people and God.

Eh, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Most of the time God speaks in other ways. But a few times God used a tangible voice to tell me things that were going to happen in the future ^^ So if I’m merely insane, at least I’m psychic too. It seems like it would be a fair trade. Normally God tones it down though. Not that I mind; I think it’d be cool to hear a voice like that every day =P

With how many religions there are, not all of them could be true. And even if the religion was true, people could twist it whatever way they want. I’ve had quite a few Christians tell me I’m going to hell. ^^ Yet, what I have found to be most beneficial in my life is this. Regardless of religion, people are often selfish and will use whatever excuse they want to justify what they do. In the Bible, I have seen no approval of torture. Nor of slavery in the way most people think of it. With the Israelites ’slavery’ was a result of debt not kidnapping, and even then they freed their slaves every 7 years in accordance with the year of Jubilee. Though, of course, ‘Christians’ in the past few centuries owned people, abused them, and somehow overlooked such things. And so on. It’s fairly easy to see, but people are often just hypocrites.

Rage party? ^^ Haha. Those people are merely insecure and have no basis for what they believe, if I had to guess =) I spend several hours each Sunday mentoring 8th grade boys, mostly. Though I must admit sleeping in late would be appealing to me too. But… too busy! ^^ I don’t sleep much anyways with my classes. I’m taking more credits than is sane. Thankfully, I’m not sane, so no problem.

Huh. Perhaps because you get to spend a long time with someone you care about watching beautiful nature? ^^ I don’t have the stomach to cause animals to suffer. I am not squeamish, since I often help gut the animals. But it harms me emotionally to watch life fade from a creature’s eyes. I stopped fishing a while ago because of that, and I only go hunting to help other people; it’s not something I enjoy. Although tracking is fun.

I’m going to be leaving this website for an indeterminate amount of time, but I wish you all the best!

lol no worries, i was kidding too :P

But if God is all-knowing why wouldn’t he have said “and later on, when thy nations grow, thou shalt stop killing each other for wearing polyester blends, because it will become a stupid law.” Seems more like an excuse or distraction away from the fact that those laws are repulsive… god’s word is “perfect” int he bible, so since he is all powerful/all knowing if should technically be as perfect now as it was then; unless you suggest god is inadequate and needs to make changes to his laws to suit our governments laws and our inherit morals? i dunno how it’s all supposed to work.

er… when god “told” you things…. where you hearing voices…?

and… if what’s true is most likely to be what benefits people the most in every way… how would you explain the fact that the vast majority of wars have been based on religion? or the fact that most religions condone torture, slavery, abuse and killing? makes no sense to me… unless, of course, the truth was something quite different form religions.

ah, idk. i dont understand religion really; they’re based on old stories off fantasy and horror, then people bend and twist it to make it seem pretty and kind. then many have a rage party once someone questions it… which goes against the majority of what they preach. meh. maybe i’m an atheist because it’s just easier. i am lay after all, so it would be an alright explanation. besides, i set my sundays aside to sleep in late and make cupcakes :P yummm

yeah… i never heard of a butchering course either, but apparentl there is a lot to lear. they even did some yaks… unfortunatly they discovered a fetus in one of them which was sad, but they donated it to the veterinary classes in the next building for dissection.

yup yup we hunt the moose annually. it’s usually 1-2 weeks of shivering in a boat on a misty river at -15 at the warmest, munching chili and hard boiled eggs and waiting for a big ole meal to amble out for a drink. and oddly, it is my favourit activity.. do you hunt deer?

People enjoy talking about what matters to them. So clearly your boyfriend doesn’t matter to you. *cough* Heh.

OI!!! MY BOYFRIND IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE N MY WORLD!!! i just know that other people arent as interested so i try not to bore you with stories about him. i love them, but you dont even know this guy, so it can’t be too interesting.

I’m going to explicitly state that I was kidding. Just in case ^^ Tones of voice are hard to convey through a medium such as this. I don’t mean to make fun of you for talking about him quite a bit. I, quite literally, asked for it. =)
Furthermore, I think it’s great that you care about him so much ^^

I know. ^^ I’m just saying. I’m a rather unemotional and unattaching person. I find it helps to mention that specifically earlyish on so that people don’t wonder if I’m only being polite but really hate their guts. *cough*

People are not supposed to kill in general because there is nothing one person does that allows another person to be able to take justice into their own hands to that extreme. So, to other people, a person is innocent. But their crimes were against God. Things are a little different now, which is part of your next point.
He fulfilled the laws though he didn’t remove them. Because the people still do things that go against God. But with the payment given God doesn’t demand the justice yet. For there is hope, if people choose to accept the sacrifice in their place.
Though there wasn’t a time where God encouraged killing in general, it’s no longer necessary to kill to maintain God’s law either. At that time it was very important because what one person did could make their entire nation suffer.

I’ve seen it happen quite a bit. Though in general people are complacent and stick with whatever they start with in life without thinking about it, which is very unfortunate. I don’t do that. I’ve made up my mind three times now ^^ And I get more certain each time I do. Most people are nominally Christian or Muslim or whatever. If you ask them why they believe something, they may not have an answer. Because they don’t care. =/

Haha. Well, I believe that God helps me and directs my life. Though… I’ve still worked hard to get near the top of my class, and I’m going to graduate with a 4 year degree in electrical engineering at 20-years-old ^^ Which is several years faster than most people here. Relaxing isn’t on my agenda. God actually promised me a challenging life, but he told me it would turn out for the good. It has not been my experience that people can believe in something that’s not true to do better in the long run though. Eventually they will be confronted with the truth. I call it “ideological evolution.” What is true is most likely to be what benefits people the most in every way. Ignorance is not bliss, it’s momentary bliss followed by much worse despair.

No matter what a person talks about, I can learn from it. ^^ If you wanted to talk for hours on end about a motorcycle, it’d be tough to not get bored, but I’d eventually be able to build one maybe. Hearing about people is easier though. Every type of person is a type of person I’ll run into in my life, so I seek to understand as many as I can ^^

Butchering course? O.o I’ve never heard of those before. I always assumed butchers came out of nowhere and learned on their own ^^ That’s very interesting. I can rarely appreciate art, but a circuit board skull would be much easier to do so with. I work with electronics quite a bit. Do you hunt and kill the moose yourselves, then? Here people hunt deer mostly.

It’s easiest when you know what you enjoy most.

Hahaha I said pal, not bet friends forever XD chillax darlin, it just means i enjoy our talks.

Contradiction like… the commandment you must not kill. Then later telling people to kill anyone who tries to tell you god is fake, to kill anyone who works on a sunday, etc etc. so saying you must not kill contradicts his other laws, which means if you kill the person, you break his commandment, if you dont obey that law, you break it, so either way you have broken his rules. i just dont get it. another thing i dont get is that jesus said he was not there to abolish the old laws but to fulfill them. so why do people always say the rules changed after jesus when he specifically said that was not what he was there to do?

of course, not everyone can be labeled into one group, so there will always be people who shift back and forth. my dad, somehow, managed to cause a JW to abandon his faith. he’s way happier now. very nice guy… but it just goes to show there will always be exceptions. i guess my point was more of a generality rather than an absolute.

personally i think the only real benefit of believing go is the lack of stress. stress is hell on the body, it kills your immune system, your motivation, can cause depression and anxiety and addiction, it’s the most common affliction. but people who believe that everything is int he hands of someone bigger has less worries. in my mind, i know i have to work very hard to have a good future, whereas some christians relax about it because they feel their future is directed for them by a supreme being.

OI!!! MY BOYFRIND IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PEOPLE N MY WORLD!!! i just know that other people arent as interested so i try not to bore you with stories about him. i love them, but you dont even know this guy, so it can’t be too interesting.

he is currently in a college taking a butchering course. last year he got a 1 year degree in an art school and won the BMO art competition for our territory and got to go to toronto with all the other winners to show off his stuff at a gallery. he even had people making offers to buy it from him!!! but it currently resides in my house on the piano. his inspiration was to spoof damian hurst’s diamond skull. he carved a skull out of styrofoam then covered the entire thing in circuit boards, and even put speakers where the ears would be and it plays off an ipod or mp3. cool!!! but he doesnt really feel like thats what he wants to do, so to try something else he’s doing the butchering. it’s great because he lives on his parent’s farm and wil be a huge help, and he can help us do our moose next year. this year all we got back from the butcher was burger, no good cuts! so now we have a butcher we can pay in money and meat, and he says he’d be honoured to help. yay! so far they have done safety and slaughter but they havent started on the cuts and deli meats yet, i expect the deli and sausage will be some of the last stuff on the curriculum.

im taking anthropology and sociology but idk what i want to do for my future either.

Well, to be honest, while I have a general feeling of endearment towards people I don’t really make friends ^^ I asked mostly out of curiosity at how you view things like this. I think having few but close friends is part of being an INFJ. We can just continue in the same way with no label on our interactions. ^^

Heh. When it comes to things involving God, few things are dramatic *enough* ^^ He works on a very different sense of scale, if he even has one.

Agreed about the sour part. About the clever mind, I’m not sure. I think he’s gifted in some areas, but he reaches beyond them. I’m mostly of the opinion of this review:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archi…

Which contradictory parts?
Technically, any act of blasphemy against God deserves death. From breaking the sabbath to lying to pride, etc. God couldn’t excuse any of it or he would not be following through on justice. Unless there was a payment. That’s why Jesus’ coming was so dramatic indeed. ^^ Before Jesus, things were hopeless. With him, there’s a chance. While the law still exists and still condemns people, Jesus could take the punishment instead. So justice and mercy coexist in that way.

That’s not a bad point. But there are a decent number of people who did not grow up as Christians but still became Christians. *cough* Actually, my parents were missionaries so I saw that a fair amount ^^ And personally, I’ve been a Christian, an atheist, and a Christian so far. I’m kind of similar to C.S. Lewis in that way. There’s a list of some of the people, though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_…

When I looked for scientific or philosophical arguments for and against the existence of God, I got lost in a long list of the arguments and counterarguments for both sides. And both sides seemed to have very good points.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existenc…
But I decided there’s an easier way to see if God exists: view the impacts believing in God has on people. Either trying to have a relationship with God will benefit people and is thus worth pursuing or it won’t so it isn’t worth pursuing. So that became one of the more important tests for me. And I don’t believe that illusions or fantasies can bring as good benefits to people as the truth ^^ I trust truth more than I trust God, you could say.

People enjoy talking about what matters to them. So clearly your boyfriend doesn’t matter to you. *cough* Heh.
What are each of you studying in school?

haha i’d like to think that we could be pals. we have, after all, been having a discussion on religion for quite a long time now and i have yet to have any sense of annoyance, anger, frustration etc. you’re a logical person and you also put a lot of thought into these, so i feel like i am learning a lot from you :)

Well, still seems silly to me, a god making a problem only he can fix and being so dramatic about it, but i guess it makes more sense the way you described it :P

I have very mixed feelings about richard dawkins. I think that he has a brilliant mind, a very clever man devoted to his study, but his personality is far less than desirable. he’s so…. sour.

i guess i just get confused as to how so many people devote themselves to something i see nothing but, well, again, trying not to be offensive, nonsense in. so many parts of the bible either contradict itself or make appaling rules such as ordering the deaths of people for reasons that are… well, really, killing someone for working on a sunday? you know what i mean. but a friend of mine sent me a video of a man explaining how he assumed to his best ability what it was like. you see, the majority of christians were born into families that practiced it, so they absorb it as reality from their earliest development. he said that to tell someone raised as a devout christian that there was no such thing as god much be incomprehensible, like telling someone who grew up during the time when the earth was “flat” that they lived on an orb floating in space that moved around the sun sitting on the edge of a huge galaxy filled with billions of stars bigger than our sun in a tiny corner of the immense universe. it’s just so… unimaginable.

now, that made a LOT of sense to me, even after years of debating people of multiple faith why they would believe in something despite every contradiction only to be answered with “because i know it is the truth.” what do you think? i mean, loads of people say that they can consider the universe without god and see it as false… but wouldnt that be just the same as the flatlander simply not being able to believe he lived on a big old ball? it’s all very confusing :O

oooh…. my bf :D lols dangerous topic to get me on, i may never shut up about him!! lol he and i are very close, although, not physically… we’re in different provinces for school right now, but we skype a few times a week and will spend the summer together. i like to consider us a very healthy couple. we can spend time together 24/7 without a hitch, and, aside a few lonely nights and longing sighs, do fine independently for months apart for school. occasionally i get a bit jealous when he goes out to the bars with his pals, btu i thinkt hats because untill now i havent been legal so it wasnt an option for me. and occasionally i’ll worry abotu him if i havent talked to him in a while… but it hink thats natural when you rally care abotu someone. i’d really like to spend a year with him though… last semester he said that he was thinking of what it might be like to try living together…. oh my go di nearly fainted haha i think it would be amazing… but its just not practical right now. we couldnt stay at each other’s places over the whole summer because we both work close to our homes and are an hour away. we’d spend more on gas than what we’d make at work and the point of working is to save up for school. and im devoted to my school for another 2-3 years while he isnt sure where he’ll be next year, and i dont want him to come ot my area unless theres something here he actually wants in school or work. i dont want him to give up any opportunities for me, he knows i’m willing to do long distance for as long as he loves me, so i guess its just a matter of spending what time we have together and keeping each other involved when we’re apart…

oh now see, i told you, i’ll never shut up about him! :D

yeah… i have lost all effort in my spelling and grammar and punctuation at this point. i have spellcheck for my essays and im sick with flu so i really dont bother XD

New name, new picture, and a new profile quote. A whole new you ^^

Are we friends, then? ^^ I never make a particularly good enemy. =)

God essentially *was* appeasing himself, actually, heh. ^^ Similar to a judge placing an impossible bail on someone, taking off whatever you call the outfit a judge wears, then going down to pay the bail himself since no one else could. When Jesus was separated from the essence of God, he suffered immensely. To the point that he developed symptoms of a rare condition where a person’s stress is so great that they sweat blood. It’s called… Hematidrosis. Being just, God had to have the justice, but no one could fulfill the sentence other than God. I’ve thought about it several times, and I’m not sure of another way.

Feel free to be honest =) If I took offense hearing peoples’ honest opinions I wouldn’t discuss such topics =P I’d have only myself to blame. Richard Dawkins saying all Christians are stupid is offensive (not to mention an impossible generalization), but saying the Bible doesn’t make sense and something to outgrow is a valid viewpoint.
I still think it applies today though, and isn’t something designed just for a certain time period, but lasting truth. Do you want to go point by point on the stuff you consider nonsensical?

I know what you mean, haha. Thankfully I have a very high metabolism, or I’d be in trouble. I have little to no self-control in what I eat. But mostly, though I don’t know how to plan too far ahead in my life, I focus on just one step at a time, since I can often see what the next step for me is but not where it leads.
Is one of your goals getting closer to your boyfriend? If you don’t mind me asking. Dating is an interesting topic to me, as an outside observer ^^ I’m interested in hearing what people think of it.

No worries ^^ I try to be a perfectionist. I figure it establishes a good habit for school papers and professional emails. Though I resort to some informal speech anyways =P

hahaha ah, i have been destroyed ;) then i suppose i’ve destroyed you to… good to know destruction brings is together! lol jkjk

question…. how is jesus’s death, if he is god, any sort of sacrifice? i’ve never really understood why someone would sacrifice themself to themself to appease themself…

but to be honest, there is a lot of stuff in both testaments that, when looked at critically, make no sense… but i attribute that to the fact that during the time the bible was written, people didn’t know how the universe really worked, so how could they have known, right? at the time, it was revolutionary. i guess i just feel like the human race should have outgrown it by now. oi, hope that didnt sound to blunt and offensive… sorry. :s

heh, a load of people i was out with tonight were going on about how they were going to start working out more and eat better… and i was like “damn, i am having some serious mcnuggets cravings…” lol i’m horrible with goals XD i prefer easy plans to follow. i already have my summer job sorted, as classes for the next year. not a goal really, just a plan to keep myself moving. i figure, though i havent a clue about my future, as long as im doing SOMETHING with my life, (learning, travelling, working) and not laying around all day, thats good enough for now :P

also, my apologies for putting zero effort into grammar, spelling, punctuation etc. my energy is shot and i just dont care lol i assure you is has no reflection on my feelings towards the convo, just lazy fingers. :P

“Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?” - Abraham Lincoln. ^^
It’s hard to be condescending or arrogant when you’ve destroyed as many people as I have. The ability to say, “Hey, I’m a pretty good person. At least, better than *this* person over here…” is inversely proportional to the number of things that keep you up at night ^^ However, if that is a refreshing change, I’m glad. =)

Right, makes sense. Amusingly enough, that’s an issue some Christians have with the Bible as well ^^ Throughout the Bible there are two intereweaved themes: law and grace. [Wait… how long of an explanation should I give? Eh, I’ll just wing it. Apologies in advance.] The only way for people to be right before God is to perfectly follow the law. The problem is, people aren’t good enough to go even a day following such a law. Hatred, malice, envy, whatever. It’s basic human nature. So people earn their punishment. And instead of being able to make up for what they’ve done as you could do in a human court of law, as time goes on we just make it even worse and stack up more offenses. So it’s impossible. And no person could take the place of another person, because we’re each at fault. So God sent his son Jesus Christ (who was also God) to die in the place of people. From that moment on, the law isn’t gone, but fulfilled because of grace. In fact, Jesus made the law even harder to fulfill when he arrived, though it was already impossible. But as in the OT when there were sacrificial lambs to atone for the sins of the people, Jesus was a sacrifice and died as a ransom.

That’s a good quality to have when making decisions. Though a criminal before a judge cannot claim ignorance of a law to remove guilt for it. And an apology may not suffice to repair the damage that has been done. There was a time when people thought DDT was safe, and children would go out and play in it as it was sprayed along the streets. The deaths and injuries were irreparable even though the assumption it wasn’t poisonous seemed valid at the time.

Aha. ^^ No, I am enjoying the conversation more the longer it goes. =P

Exactly. My goals are important because I think they’re important, not because there’s a time of the year I feel guilty and want to improve my life ^^

Haha I have nothing against you snow, I find you interesting to talk to. You haven’t been condescending or arrogant or close minded, and I’ve certainly tried to reciprocate, and I find it’s a refreshing change.

The issue I have with Old/New testament is this; in the OT, it was said that gods word is perfect and always will be. so jesus changing is means that, if jesus is god himself as many suggest, then he is correcting the bible, as in, a mistake, thus he is very imperfect and obviously so much so that his word had to be rewritten. or, if jesus was the son of god, not god himself, well, the problem with that is that jesus taught to rebel and question your parents. or hate them… something like that. anyway, the gist of it is, if jesus says dont listen to you parents, and god is his parent…. isn’t he saying not to listen to god? And if he just the son of god, then he is not as great as god thus his word would hold no authority over the word of god which, in the OT, is perfect.

Another good point you have about assumptions; but it is also the responsibility of the assumer to take full responsibility. for example, based on my reasoning, facts of the world, physical proof and the laws of the universe, i assume with 100% assurance that there is no god. but, if i die,, and god does exist, or if a rapture does happen, or if god is somehow proven to be real, then i will gladly admit my wrongness and make apologies that may be required for it. As, it would be my responsibility to do so. and any respectable doctor, scientist, or any other thinker who has an idea, when proven wrong, will admit it without shame and likely give their respects to the admirable fellow who did it.

what i get out of this… sharing ideas in peaceful, respected company. i’m a passionate person and find it difficult to put up with others some times, but i respect you snow, and i gladly put any pointless irks to rest to be able to enjoy this conversation. of course, if you’ve grown tired of it, we can always talk about something else :P

resolutions? nah, too much work for no reason. personally, i think that a goal should be made at a time that is important to me. something more significant than a number on a calendar, you know? i already have goals i made earlier, i think i’ll stick with them :P

I have no disagreement with that statement. I do, of course, have some disagreements with certain proof and facts. ^^ However, I still think people are allowed the chance to not hear atheistic statements as people are allowed the chance to not hear theistic ones.

I meant in regards to your comment on discrimination. I’m not sure what issue it’s addressing. And nice discussions are up to opinion. I’ve had friendlier ones. And far, far less friendly ones. So it’s not a bad one overall. ^^ As long as you don’t try to kill me, I think we’re good. Those conversations get old fast.

Interesting. I see where you’re coming from. Have you noticed the contrast between the Old Testament and New Testament portrayals of the same God?

Conspiracy theories are somewhat amusing; nihilism is less so. Though it’s guaranteed nothing is beyond people disagreeing with.

Incorrect assumptions can be made, however, even if they start with reason. ^^ From some assumptions, an old earth theory makes sense. From others, it doesn’t. Radiometric isotope dating, for one, requires assumptions about starting isotope level and constant rate of decay.
Ah, the assumptions scientists who support an old earth theory start with. If you ever get tired of this type of conversation let me know ^^ The existence or nonexistence of God does not depend on our small argument. I’ve won some and lost some, it doesn’t make much of a difference. Other than what you can get out of it, of course =)

I generally don’t make new years resolutions. I try to plan my goals day by day as I can. I seek to make the world a better place in every way that I can. Though my main goals are my school and an internship that I’m likely to get soon.
How about you?

being religious does not make someone ignorant: denying proven facts int he name of religion does.

so… there is no issue. i thought we were just having a nice discussion?

the christian god… has some nice overtones, but according to his apparent doings and speeches int he bible is a cruel, vain, selfish and hateful thing. people may say he is kind and loving and all forgiving and accepting…. but there is more proof in the bible itself that if he exists he is quite the opposite. in fact, i dont think it is a stretch to say that lucifer is a kinder, gentler thing than the christian god.

as for people who doubt the moon landing, they’re the same sorts of people who believe everything is a conspiracy or that other facts of life are false because it disagrees with their beliefs. mostly the conspiracy theory fellows though.

like i said, assumptions have to be based on reason. i expect if you were asked in this class, what could make a bridge fail? you would say somethign reasonable such as weak foundation or faulty suspension, rather than assuming something unrelated of foolish like, godzilla is coming or it was made of pie. you have to use your brain. that’s my point (one you pretty much just reinforced) and in this, i make the assumption that you answered these questions using your brain, using reason, rather than spouting rubbish based on… well, japanese horror movies and dessert. :D

you’ll have to be more specific when you ask which assumptions do i start with. im forgetting bits and pieces of our convo because of its drawn out nature. :P

And a happy New Year!! Any resolutions or goals for this year?

Come now, when you get tired of hearing about religions that isn’t ignorance is it? The reverse is similar.

That’s true. I’m still not sure what the issue is ^^

I’m not surprised. It’s common for atheists to have an intense dislike of Christianity. So, how much do you know about the Christian God, then? I ask out of curiosity, not to try to say that you’re a fool ^^ I grew up in a Muslim/animistic country so I have a more varied experience than the average person in Western societies.

Probably, as there are people who doubt that people have landed on the moon. But the gaps are quite larger than that so it’s a moot point.

Hehe. The funny thing is though, from a different set of assumptions the earth would not be proven to be that old. So then the question comes in, how do you know which assumptions to start with? In one of my engineering classes, we had to make about 9 assumptions to solve one problem. That wasn’t so bad because there was nobody arguing that we should make different assumptions. Tricky business otherwise.

That makes sense =) It’s enjoyable to see other get contentment out of gifts that you’ve given them. Though I haven’t been excited about getting gifts in 4 years or so, and generally do not feel like celebrating my birthday either. I believe that’s due to a difficult childhood ^^ However, there’s something about winter that makes me happier in general.

i’m not bothered by it, aside being bothered by people choosing to be ignorant.

and, snow, WE ALL are discriminated against, and we all discriminate. not a single human on earth does not discriminate and not a single human on earth is not discriminated against.

that fact doesnt bother me and has no place in my opinion.

christian god, thats what i argue against. islam god? fine. i dont believe in him but at least in his stories he’s a good guy. muslim, dont know enough about it. if i dont know about it i wont argue about it because that means i’d be a fool.

as for things like gaps in evolution, there will always be someone accusing us of having gaps untill we somehow find a line of descendants, generation by generation. even if we could fins a trail of people from ape to human and were missing only one member, one parent or one grandchild, we would be accused of having gaps.

the thing about assumption is, it can only ever be based of reason. if it is not based on a logical reasoning, it isnt worth acknowledging, and there have been many scientists pushed aside for having theories and estimates that arent backed by fact and logical thought. just because a scientist says something does not make it true, and any good scientist willingly admits so. thats is what sets science apart from religion; it is respectable, even from within the “important” people.

frozen north eh? us too. north of 60 means you’ll never be short on snow and ice this time of year. excited about presents? i find my favourite part aout the whole gift giving of christmas is watching other people open what i got them. i always appreciate what others give me but i am never happy opening a gift unless i know i have given that person something spectacular in return… or at least something they’ll like or need! haha

Do you feel discriminated against to be asked not to tell someone God doesn’t exist and to not tell them that they’re wrong?
That sounds more like you would be the one discriminating, actually ^^ I don’t think I clearly understand what bothers you about it.

You are arguing against Christianity, not God, by the way. The two are quite independent, as any Muslim can attest. Though we can go with that and argue about the Christian God as revealed in the Bible.
There has never been a point in history where the Bible’s claims were anything other than extraordinary. No new facts had to be introduced to convince people that flaming chariots of fire going up to heaven would be anything other than miraculous. Or any of many different other stories in the Bible. Yet, people still believed in God, and still do. Even engineers ^^
- Are you aware of how the age of the earth is estimated? Radiometric dating requires many assumptions. Starting isotope amounts, constant environment decay, etc. I’ve never had a good explanation on how it could be anything other than an educated guess, or how other educated guesses could be wrong.
- Evolution also has gaps. The amount of time it would take for random mutations to accrue into a human being is astronomical, far beyond 4 billion years. An estimated 50 trillion cells in a human body as a result of random mutations, and even over a period of 4 billion years it’s still impossible. Especially with such a high incidence of harmful mutations to beneficial ones. Microevolution makes a lot of sense. Macroevolution makes much less.
- Churches believing the world was flat centuries ago doesn’t prove anything anymore than atheists believing the same at the time. Yet if you look through history, a decent number of the great philosophers and scientists have been Christians.

Thank you ^^ Merry Christmas to you as well. Indeed there is snow. In the frozen north, there’s snow frequently. Though not as much as previous years for some reason.

adressing your sidenote: yes, i know, but it clearly states in the help rules that there is to be no discrimination agaisnt sex, race, or religion.

proof for god’s nonexistance would not be a hard fact that you could hold and feel in your hands because you can not have proof of or against something that does not exist. instead, what i have are billions of years of proof that argue agaisnt god.

bible says god made the world in a week. wrong: it’s billions of years old, that is proved.
bible says god made adam from dust and eve from adams rib. wrong: we have proved evolution and now know that no living being can be made the way the bible says god did it.
bible says miracles were performed by jesus/god. wrong: there has never been proof of these accounts nor are they possible withing the bounds of physics, physics being the laws of the universe, these cannot be broken.
bible says the world was flooded and all the animals that could not swim/fly were on a boa made by one man. wrong: there has never been proof of the world flooding over withing the lifetime of the human race, nor can any one man build a boat the size of a small country to house the billions of tonnes it would take to carry every reptile, mammal, and insect that cannot fly/swim.
chruches believed that we were the only earth, flat with the universe, small universe, surrounding us. wrong: we live in a heliocentric solar system on the edge of a massive galaxy that compared to the rest of the universe is no more than a speck of dust on a speck of dust.

as you can see, all these proven facts argue agaisnt god and everything god supposedly said and did. if mankind knew all of thee facts before god was invented by man, no one would have believed in god.

but, you know as well as i do, you do not need proof against something to know it isnt real. what is necessary is proof for something. this is why when a scientist has a theory, he is not working to prove it wrong, he is working to prove it right. when he lacks proof, he accepts that it is either out of his grasp or not correct, and generally once a theory comes up, people will either try to prove it right, or, try to prove a counter theory that would wipe the old theory out, i.e. modern science wiping out god due to the lack f proof for the god theory and the mountains of proof for scientific theories that counter the god theory. you see?

also, a very merry christmas to you! its so snowy outside, are you having a white christmas as well? :)

Well, this type of wolf has been domesticated for a long time. They call it a Golden Retriever ^^
Every single statement has to be backed by facts otherwise it’s just opinion. I don’t believe in unicorns because I have no proof that they exist. I also realize I can’t disprove them. But I don’t need to either. However, you claim to know that God does not exist, but can’t prove it. That’s not anymore logical than a person who believes in God but can’t prove it either. Now if you didn’t believe in God merely because you don’t have proof for God’s existence, that would make sense to me. But I would very much like to have your proofs for God’s nonexistence if any exists ^^ You don’t have to, just as a theist isn’t forced to prove God exists, I suppose. Though I’d wonder why anyone would say something without having a reason for it ^^ Even if it’s just an intuitive sense, at the least.

Also, as a sidenote, people *are* allowed to request that certain people not respond to their post or that certain types of responses are kept away. And mods will back it up if the poster desires it. As a precedent see Ozy’s post on gay marriage in New York.

anyway, you were the one who told me to prove he didnt exist, i know he doesnt and i dont have to prove it. that was just a response. :P

wolves arent domesticated, you can not have a domesticate wolf. -_- you might have a TAME wolf but not domesticated.

also that is so wrong.

Why is God’s impossible?

I don’t have to ^^ I have no compelling reason(s) to believe that they exist, and that’s good enough for me. Proving that they don’t exist is unimportant.

I have a domesticated wolf. I’ll try practicing being non-threatening on her first, I think.

you can not prove that something does not exist, and it is not our job to do so. it is our job to use logic, critical thinking, and reason, to understand that god is impossible, therefore does not exist int he world other than as an idea.

prove to me that invisible pink unicorns do not exist, and i will use the same method on god.

and yes… bc is is british columbia. lol dont be afraid of the wolves they are actually very intelligent animals and only become a threat if you go into their territory and threaten them first :)

That’s the point. The neutral starting point for every discussion is of no proof for or against something. And then, people who want to prove something from there have the burden of proof ^^ The burden of proof is thus on a person for claiming God does exist, as well as on someone for saying God does not. And on someone for saying there is evidence for God’s existence, as for someone who says there is no evidence for God. Otherwise people just resort to the neutrality of, “I have no compelling evidence for that.” Can you prove that there is no evidence for God and you merely haven’t ever found it?

BC is British Columbia? Thanks… Now I have to cancel my summer vacation =/

im serious about that last bit, them wolves are pretty badass. nom nom nommin on grizzly. :P

and by evidence, i do not mean a book some people wrote, or eye witness accounts. i mean EVIDENCE. such as, there is evidence for the existence of dinosaurs. there is evidence of liquid water on the moon Europa. There is evidence that wolves in BC rain forests eat bear.

darksnow, that isnt how that works. you can’t prove there are no invisible unicorns, but being unable to disprove something is not proof of its existence. :)

there is no evidence for god. that is proven. no, it does not disprove god, but the fact remains, there is no hard inarguable evidence for god’s existance.

Perhaps it’d be better if I try to be more explicitly clear. My faith in God is a faith based on experience, reason, proof, etc. I do not consider it unsupported or lacking in evidence. Your continued insistence that there is no evidence is merely an assumption you have about theism. Just because you have not found any compelling evidence isn’t any more scientific than the scientists who do not believe in global warming. Unless you can disprove the existence of God, you cannot say there is no evidence for God.
You can, of course, say that there isn’t compelling evidence for God and that the burden of proof is on theists to prove God. And that is understandable and reasonable. But your other assertions are not reason, but opinion.

You never said that faith in God is based on old words and goes unquestioned for theists?

i never said that snow. dont put words into my mouth.

there are two kinds of faith. the first, as i said, is based on experience, reason, proof. such as, i have faith in my space heater that it will work.

everyone has this kind of faith. but people usually call it trust or confidence.

the second kind of faith, such as the faith in god, is unsupported and lacking in proof and goes against reason. religious people have this, atheists do not.

we good on that?

No, you do not have to. Though, if you decide that there is no way for theists to have faith based on experience and reason, you will be making assumptions about something you do not understand. C.S. Lewis for his part was entirely focused on reason as a proof of God. I am mostly so. While you may not agree with it, it is the same kind of faith.

Actually, I’m more a proponent of, “Let’s ask the women if they want things to change, and if so take over their country, enforce laws to keep them from doing that, and radically alter their society” ^^
Because I’m not so sure to each their own is a good idea, especially if it harms others.

and remember snow, disagreement is not necessarily disrespect. i dont have to agree with everything i am presented with. :)

respect is earned my friend. there are two kinds of faith; faith based on experience and reason such as your country being safe from nukes, and faith based on no solidarity, such as god. i was just pointing out that scientists have the first sort.

and yeah, it’s a weird system they have going on there.but hey, to each their own, eh?

And my apologies that I’m behind on responding to your other shout. I’m on this website infrequently. ^^

That sounds too bad, really. I wonder if the women have any choice in that. I can see how it’d appeal to the boys, but I wonder about the girls. Perhaps they go along with it because they’d be threatened anyways, so they might as well get gifts out of it? =\

¡ ¡ MuƒƒÍπ§ � wrote:
don’t make an assumption about atheism when you dont understand it.
…
and the “faith” scientists have in their methods are based on proof and experience, not on old words. even what they have faith in, they refuse to let go unquestioned.

If you want to be respected, you have to show the same respect for others.
Faith does not imply things are unquestioned. I have faith that this country is safe from nuclear attacks, but there’s a possibility it isn’t and I’ve thought about it before. I also have faith in God and I have seriously considered, many times, on whether or not He exists. I’m also an engineer and a scientist ^^ Essentially. I have half a year left, but there isn’t an appreciable difference.

I bear you no ill will, but I hope you realize what you are conveying is fairly hypocritical =/

ohhh now i see what you mean.

but yeah, it’s not really seen as somethng to enjoy as lovers, it’s more of a lust thing. boys give gifts to girls in exchange for sex. and if they say no they usually threaten or force them. which would be just awful in my mind, but i guess it’s the norm over there.

¡ ¡ MuƒƒÍπ§ � wrote:
In either scenario, we both have a different opinion on matters. I’m not wrong for not liking horses, and you aren’t wrong for not liking biology class. It’s just different.

What does right and wrong have to do with this? The point is one of us will enjoy the biology class more and one of us will enjoy having the horses more than the other. So the one who does not get as much enjoyment out of it is missing out, which is sad to me. If I had horses though I didn’t enjoy them or a biology class though I didn’t enjoy it, it would be unfortunate.
Or if I ate without enjoying it, or worked without enjoying it, etc. Life is amazing, and good to enjoy. Making it meaningless or not enjoyable is unenviable.

If sex is seen as precious in the culture you live in, I’d like to know where that is ^^ That isn’t the case here.

er… no, that has nothing to do with it actually…

think of it more like this:

Lets pretend you have a ranch a looove horses. You have lots of horses and they are all beautiful, and strong, and fast, and whatever else a good horse might be. Now, lets pretend I also have a ranch and I have a bunch of cattle. I have a horse to ride when I round up the cattle, but it’s just a horse. No big deal. It lives in the barn, eats hay, whatever, just a horse.

Now to you, I should love my horse and have more appreciation for its awesome horseness. To me, it’s just a horse that does a job.

Or another example, lets say you are in high school and are taking a mandatory biology class. Lets say you really don’t care about biology, maybe you want to be an artist when you grow up. You do your homework, do the dissections but you’re just doing it because you have to. Now lets pretend I’m a biology fanatic, and I am LOVING the class, way more fascinated by the frog intestines or whatever other biology type stuff we might be doing.

In either scenario, we both have a different opinion on matters. I’m not wrong for not liking horses, and you aren’t wrong for not liking biology class. It’s just different.

The sex thing in Kenya is on a larger scale of course, but it’s the same idea. In western culture, sex is a precious act that should be shared with someone special, and that’s it. In Kenya, sex is just an activity which can either be enjoyed, or for use of trade, and considered a normal part of growing up as much as dating is. In fact, sex and dating are considered the same thing.

Obviously each individual is different; some people over there may do what they can to avoid sex until they are in love. Likewise, over here, some people don’t care about love and go around having one night stands whenever they feel like it.

Neither one is wrong, just different. It’s the culture, the socialization. Just like the horses and biology, it means different things to different people depending on how you are raised and were you are from.

Ahh, I see. From a psychological standpoint, that is most similar to drug addictions, actually. At first people do something because it is enjoyable, but then they start to become immune to the effects and pursue the drug more and more. Which makes sense since endorphins act like drugs. Few people realize the impacts of it. Yet they pursue it through sex, cutting (interesting, that one), etc.

i never said you were ALONE in your view in the sense that no one else shared it. lots of people have similar opinions. but many more do not.

different people associate joy with different things. i take joy in hunting. others take joy in painting.

not all things are enjoyed by all people.

and there is different levels and types of joy; an orgasm from sex s a different joy than love in sex. thats why loads of people have one night stands and never think of it again; recreation without personal attachment.

it isnt a rare thing, and it isnt unique to kenya. you see it in western culture all the time.

No, I am not alone in this view at all. Have you ever met a person who enjoyed something they were completely emotionless towards? By definitions alone, that’s impossible. Joy is an emotion. It is not culturally subjective, it is not individually subjective, it is absolute. It is also very specific, so you can disprove it by one case that contradicts it, in accordance with Popper’s philosophy of falsifiability.

but this is your personal view, and your personal view alone. not everything considered fulfilling in our culture is considered fulfilling in another culture, and there’s nothing bad about either one.

Right and wrong has nothing to do with this. Moral nihilism can be a discussion for some other time. There is no fulfillment in meaningless acts. A person unemotionally eating ice cream would also be a sad thing. That isn’t culturally or individually subjective. That’s just how humans are.
And because it isn’t fulfilling, I would consider it something to avoid.

what i’m talking abotu is not idividuals, it’s culture. and entirely different subject. your statement is truw when in regards to individuals, but not for cultures.

example; the kenyan sex scrips. in kenya, it’s the norm.

in western culture, many people see it as wrong.

this is because instead of judging kenyan activities from the kenyan view, we judge it from our own. this makes US wrong.

I just realized the topic is digressing. Therefore, I’m going to respond here ^^

¡ ¡ MuƒƒÍπ§ � wrote:
because we are judging them by OUR standards, not their own. someone should only ever be judged by their own standards.

That becomes a “people judge themselves” mentality. Which goes against national and international laws, socio-cultural decisions, and the like. There are people who do not consider murder immoral, for example, yet they are punished for it. People are held accountable to standards other than their own all of the time. Yet, I’m not judging them at all or holding them accountable to any standards. I just have pity for them because in my life, time and again, I have been told by people it was not fulfilling for them. And I’ve seen the impacts firsthand.